Questions About Faslane

As Treasury officials play ‘Think of a Number’ and the Lib Dems go into freefall, a bad day for the Better Together campaign just got worse. It seems that it isn’t just the Treasury that are just making things up. We were contacted by readers in Helensburgh who told us they had been doing their own research after some very odd claims made by Jackie Baillie at a recent public meeting in the town.

Watch the film then read David Pollock’s open letter to Baillie below it.

An open letter to Ms Jackie Baillie

Dear Ms Baillie,

Recently, I attended a meeting organised by the Helensburgh Advertiser in the Victoria Halls in Helensburgh. The meeting was interesting but it did not clarify an important issue, which is whether the Base at Faslane is a benefit to or a blight on Helensburgh.

Your assertion at the meeting that we only need to look around Helensburgh to see the beneficial impact that the Faslane Base has on this area surprised me. Central Helensburgh does not look prosperous to me. This is underlined by the large number of empty shops and by the charity shops in prime positions in the centre of the town. Charity shops have an important role but their number and location suggest that there is not much competition from conventional retailers for these shops. In addition to the numerous semi-derelict empty shops, there are major buildings, including former banks, a hotel and a filling station that appear to have been abandoned. If you doubt this, I’ll be happy to give you copies of the photographs I took recently in central Helensburgh.

This situation is surprising in what should be a prosperous town, especially one that supposedly benefits from 11,000 people employed nearby. I noticed that Mr Young, in his letter published in the Advertiser (8/5/14), says that the number of “directly related defence jobs” is even higher (12,000), so the beneficial effects of the Base on commerce in Helensburgh should be even more obvious. It isn’t.

At the meeting, you were very clear that 6,500 people are employed by the MOD and Babcocks at the Base and another 4,500 are employed in the supply chain supporting the workers at the Base. You were adamant that these numbers are “very real and not made up” and that you have consistently quoted these figures to justify your support for the Base. It is surprising that the potentially huge spending power of such a large and presumably well-paid workforce does not have an obvious beneficial effect on Helensburgh.

Why is that?

At the meeting in the Victoria Halls, a gentleman from the audience provided a possible answer to this question. He had learned that a large number of staff at Faslane live at the base from Monday to Thursday but return to their homes elsewhere in the UK at the weekends and they do not buy houses in the area or contribute much to the local economy.

I was surprised when this information was revealed. I was even more surprised that you kept your head down and said nothing in response to this revelation. Your uncharacteristic silence was all the more significant, since, throughout the rest of the debate, you intervened vigorously, when you disagreed with anything.

Do you dispute the information he provided or were you already aware that many of the staff at Faslane do not live here or contribute much to the local economy, because they live elsewhere in the UK for part of each week?

My second point concerns the calculation of the number of workers (4,500) in the supply chain that supports the 6,500 staff at the Base. I did not understand your explanation of how the number in the supply chain was calculated. I would be grateful if you could explain how the figure of 4,500 people in the supply chain was arrived at.

As I recall, you said this figure was obtained “through use of an income multiplier, which is the amount you (ie we) spend in the local economy.” You were at pains to emphasise that these figures aren’t made up, that they had been produced for Scottish Enterprise some time ago and that you have been quoting these figures consistently ever since. Frankly, your account of the calculation, though obviously well-rehearsed, did not make sense to me. I would be grateful if you would explain how the figure of 4,500 was calculated. It is incomprehensible how the cash we collectively spend in the shops can somehow be transmuted (by a magical “income multiplier”) into the number of people employed in the supply chain for the Base. How is this possible? Moreover, how is this factor influenced by what we spend elsewhere – in Glasgow or Braehead for example? More importantly, how does the calculation take account of the transient nature of the staff, who work for the MOD and Babcocks at the Base but only live here part-time and leave for long weekends elsewhere?

It is no secret that the No Campaign, of which you are an active member, seeks to dissuade people from voting “yes” in the referendum, by trying to frighten the voters. This approach seeks to undermine the confidence of the voters by highlighting the alleged risks of voting “yes”, whilst implying that there are absolutely no risks associated with voting “no.”

Another undermining technique employed by the No Campaign is to disparage the idea that Scotland could be a successful independent nation that could, for example, defend itself. You used the latter technique at the meeting in the Victoria Halls when you sneeringly suggested that if the electorate voted ‘yes’ in September, the Scottish Navy would have only “seven frigates and half a submarine,” the latter presumably being obtained as a farewell gift from the remaining UK. Very drole but not as absurd as the current parlous state of the RN. Are you aware that the RN now has many more commanding officers than active, major surface warships.

When I last checked, there were 40 admirals and 260 captains but just 19 ships that are major surface combatants (13 frigates and 6 guided missile destroyers), not one of which is based in Scotland. This is disastrous for a nation with aspirations to be a major world power. Correction – for Westminster politicians with pretensions to pose on the world stage and, according to their favourite cliche, “punch above our weight.” Even more absurd are the 2 aircraft carriers currently being built and for which the UK cannot afford to buy aircraft.

It now turns out that there are questions about whether the flight deck of the single carrier that the Ministry of Defence can afford to retain, is strong enough for the aircraft to land on. I’ll leave the submarines, including the abandoned hulks at Rosyth, for another day, when I hope you might clarify the logic, practicalities and morality of your position. This story requires a modern Gilbert and Sullivan duo to do justice to these issues and to the monumental incompetence and soaring self-regard of the Westminster politicians, including your labour colleagues at Westminster.

In conclusion, I wonder why you have apparently not noticed that the population in this area is falling and, according to the Sunday Times, house prices in Helensburgh are falling to a greater extent than anywhere else in the UK. (Google it if you haven’t seen this news.} Moreover, as the Advertiser recently reported, there are many unoccupied shops and a lot of charity shops in the centre of Helensburgh. Why is this? True to your Project Fear philosophy, you raised the spectre of falling house prices, depopulation and diminished prosperity which would inevitably occur in Helensburgh if the nuclear submarines were ever removed from Faslane.

To emphasise your threat you pointed to Dunoon, where, when the US nuclear submarines were withdrawn, house prices, prosperity and the population all fell. You warned that a similar fate awaits Helensburgh. What you did not admit is that the dire (Dunoon-like) circumstances you predict already exist here in Helensburgh now, before any nuclear submarines have been withdrawn. Why is that? Is it possible that the falling house prices, the falling population and the numerous closed shops in central Helensburgh are related to the proximity of the Base and its nuclear weapons, from which many people would prefer to stay far away?
David Pollock

PS Recently, I sent similar emails to you and to the editor of the Helensburgh Advertiser, which did not publish my open letter to you. The emails I sent to you and to the Advertiser asked questions similar to those in the email above. I have now contacted the Advertiser to advise them that I wish formally to withdraw the letter I sent to the editor and that I no longer want it to be considered for publication in the Advertiser, because I have made other arrangements. However, I assure you that I am still looking forward to receiving your answers to the questions posed in the original open letter to you and now in the email above.

 



Categories: Commentary, Economics

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44 replies

  1. I live nearby in Dumbarton and it is obvious that Jackie Baillie’s web of deceit has been truly unravelled. The game is up, Jackie.

  2. How many staff are actually working there is a grey area, and is sure to be overblown when coming from the Unionist propaganda machine.
    However, here is other questions that should be answered, has anyone ever tested the radiation levels in the sea and land at Faslane/ Coulport /Holy Loch? Or indeed around Helensburgh itself?

    If as suspected there are higher levels, then how long does that radiation last, What are the possible effects on human, animal and sea life. Finally, who pays if clear ups are required? The MOD dodges these issues whenever they arise. Further, there are many other sites across Scotland that we already know DO have higher radiation levels yet nothing is being done, simply because they are very expensive to clean up.

    Another Union bonus?

    • Very good article and I was reading the other day about the running of some nuclear sites being sold to private companies, some time back. I know very little, but if you look at ploughshare site and look up nuclear subs on the web under images, all kinds of interesting info is available, from all sides and with many different takes on the subject. What I do know is that Scotland has been and is being had, big style. A dumping ground really. It is time for the powers that be to see sense and now, not tomorrow or next year. Makes you wonder whether they care about their own kids’ and grandkids’ futures. Will they think of the future, and those who are going to have to deal with all of this huge, man made, horrendous mess, very sad.

    • Radiation levels in the Faslane, Coulport, Gareloch and Holy Loch areas are tested regularly by SEPA with the results freely available on the internet if you search for Radioactivity in Food and the Environment (RIFE). These are fairly thorough and analyse soil, sea life, crops and beef from the area.

      Alternatively the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory perform their own monthly monitoring and produce a yearly survey report. These should be available on request.

      I hope this answers your question. I would fires that the reason you haven’t heard of this monitoring is because there is nothing which could be used for scaremongering in the results

      • Good links. Let’s not forget Dalgety Bay is contaminated, as is shown in the results you mention:

        “Monitoring of the Dalgety Bay area (near the site of a former military airfield) revealed many radium contaminated particles and objects.”

        – source: http://www.food.gov.uk/science/research/radiologicalresearch/radiosurv/rife/rife-2012/ :

      • and ‘of course’ the MOD and UK establishment would NEVER hide the truth about radiation levels in Scotland. – Oh! Wait. Aberdour – you say.

        http://dearkitty1.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/british-nuclear-weapons-radiation-leak-scandal/

        You say – Oh dear. It’s all scaremongering says MOD mouthpiece.

      • Thanks Dave. Forgive us if we are a little skeptical on the impartiality of a government body tasked with monitoring radiation after they clearly did such an awesome job in Dalgety Bay etc.

        Also really appreciate your attempt to diminish genuine and valid concern from the people who actually pay for these shenanigans as “scaremongering”.

        You are clearly an objective, impartial and level headed dude with the very best interests of the people of Scotland at heart. Right?

      • Dave

        I have no doubt that you believe and trust these bodies and I respect that although I do not share your confidence regarding that trust.

        However this type of testing only reveals an actual event or failure. Every successful company left this “rear view mirror” approach behind years ago. The important issue is near miss reporting. How close did we come to an event. How many barriers failed and if another two had failed this would have been the outcome.
        I have only anecdotal evidence from ex-RN personnel but it is enough for me to doubt that potential incidents are not being reported or fully investigated and mad PUBLIC.

        We may not have had a major event and therefore SEPA have no evidence.
        The MOD maybe able to state “We have had no REPORTABLE incidents”
        When they have a MINOR incident Dounrey I am more interested in the POTENTIAL of the incident.
        What happened is often much lower than what could have happened but it tells you the direction of travel (e.g. Piper had several incidents that highlighted failings in barriers such as permit control / competency / maintenance / emergency control in the years leading up to the 6th. July 1988)

        However how many times have individual barriers failed. How many times have we been lucky?
        See: Domino effect / barrier loss model etc

        Are you confident that the MOD would call SEPA and tell them “phew nothing got released but we were damned lucky this time!”

  3. Reblogged this on Bampots Utd.

  4. A very fine piece of expose, indeed! Well done.

    Not only did it illuminate the manufacturing of consent a indulged by Baillie, but the poverty of her assertions. I learned much from your letter and from the film. Excellent work.

  5. The MOD is rewriting its contracts for the nuclear weapons manufacturers, so that they are relieved of any financial burden in the event of an insurance claim should there be a nuclear incident in the area. In effect, the public will pay for a clean-up of any nuclear fall-out over and above an agreed figure of £100,000.

    http://www.robedwards.com/2014/04/nuclear-bomb-companies-given-multi-million-pound-get-out-on-accidents.html

    It’s a callous exercise in appeasing big business at the expense of the residents in the areas surrounding the nuclear bases and of taxpayers.

  6. Excellent piece of work, I got it on my FB pages so word is getting around. As Faslane/Coulport is VERY important to the debate and as ‘madam’ is happily running around spreading misinformation about the number of jobs involved etc the more her nonsense is tackled the better it will be for YES – thus the importance of the work you guys are doing – THANKS.

  7. I read that the private companies R going 2 have V limited responsibilty/liability 4 clean up (prob fall 2 the taxpayer) & even 2 some extent 4 health & safety, which CaMoron has diluted. The prospect of the pact being signed by EU &US, namely the TTP/TPP,namely, Transatlantic Trade Partnership, also know as Transatlantic Pacific Partnership,will give Corporations huge powers, not just against workers (again reg benefits, health & safety/ injury on the job) but the ability 2 sue Gov’s, if they Gov, say want 2 ban a harmful product. In most cases the companies’ll win & penalties awarded 2 the company, will of course come out, U guessed taxpayers pockets.

  8. Reblogged this on A Pictur-Yes-que Viewpoint from the Nethan Valley and commented:
    A blog about the current state of Helensburgh and the economic role of Faslane.

  9. Senior forces personnel were advised in recent times not go buy houses in the Helensburgh area because of uncertainty over the outcome of the referendum. It seems like the uk navy is already planning its departure

  10. Very interesting film and the parallels with Thurso and Dounreay decommissioning are very striking. Scotland has been used as a testing ground and as a base for post-imperial British adventures for too long. The financial benefits are a myth and even if they were not they would be immoral. Let us get rid of all military establishments including such pseudo-civil blemishes as Dounreay and HMS Vulcan. There are no arguments to justify the continuation of Faslane unless you believe that war is a business as, obviously, Jackie Baillie does.

  11. I lived in Helensburgh in the 1980’s – what a vibrant seaside town. I was shocked when I visited a couple of years ago. The place had has its soul ripped out.

    The Faslane base has killed what should still be a pretty, charming tourist town just a quick train ride from Glasgow, doon the water where you walk around a sweet promenade and buy an ice cream.

    A similarity would be Mission Bay in Auckland, New Zealand, where you travel less than half an hour and have a stroll on the beach, some chips on a bench, relax and have a beer.

    I am fed up of this rubbish about “jobs” as an excuse to support military bases.

    As I said to my local Western Isles MP, Angus MacNeil in an email on Monday regarding my concerns about the private corporation, QinetiQ, using the Hebrides as a testing site for weapons as well as “ion thruster”, sonic and magnetic technology {geoengineering etc} with a view to it being sold as military and/or space technology, most of us are not so desperate for “jobs” as to allow ourselves to be cancer-ridden zombies never mind sell-out our grandchildren.

  12. Reblogged this on Are We Really Better Together? and commented:
    We are told that military bases in Scotland benefit the Scottish economy and that Faslane, specifically, keeps Helensburgh and surrounding areas ‘prosperous’. I have a pal who works on the base. He is a Scot but his home is in England and that is where his wife and family live. He returns home at every given opportunity and is not out in Helensburgh spending his considerable (and hard earned) submariner’s pay. He lives on base, he isn’t a big drinker, he gets fed and housed on the base and I can’t imagine is out in Helensburgh buying much in the way of anything. And he is but one example of the 85% of Faslane workers – both military and civilian – who return home to south of the Border at weekends and are not contributing to the local economy.

    Please watch the video in this blog and read the open letter to Jackie Ballie MSP then ask yourself how this shows we are Better Together?

  13. At the time of the US Navy presence at Holy Loch I lived in a nearby glen; I did not notice a great deal of prosperity around then in that town, the US having its own Commissary. (A lot of trouble in the pubs, though)
    Dunoon, 22 years on from the US withdrawal, seems to be doing very well, with a new marina (http://www.holylochmarina.co.uk/) at Holy Loch, and plenty of open shops and hotels. It’s not prosperous, but house prices are not falling, but rising and there seems to be a more optimistic feeling than any of the other towns around the Firth of Clyde, especially Helensburgh.
    The financial case that Jackie Baillie makes is a fabrication, driven by a very different agenda. The moral case for Faslane is, of course, non-existent.

  14. The STUC report on Faslane effectively destroys Jackie Baillie’s absolute nonsense on this subject. The MOD has conceded that only 520 jobs are directly associated with the nuclear component of the base. That the Labour Party has been complicit in Baillie’s lies is nothing short disgraceful. The report can be easily accessed online. Below is a paragraph from its introductory preamble.
    The Scottish Government is committed to the retention of the base as a conventional naval facility and the HQ of a Scottish defence force which would provide an enhanced presence for Helensburgh,

    “The report demonstrates the inaccuracy of claims that upwards of 11,000 jobs would
    be lost to Scotland if Trident was not replaced. It finds that the reduction in direct,
    indirect and induced civilian employment across Scotland would be less than 1,800 and
    that this reduction would not take place until after 2022. It notes that a rescheduling
    of the withdrawal of the existing Trident submarines to coincide with the introduction
    of the new conventionally armed Astute class submarines, also to be based at Faslane,
    would smooth employment and minimise any redundancies. The report assumes the
    continuation of the Faslane Royal Navy base for non-nuclear weapons functions in line
    with government projections”.

  15. This is a case surely for Bernard Ponsonby who is currently experiencing great difficulty in flushing out Yes voters on his strictly impartial fact-finding Scottish jaunt!

  16. The only surprise to me is that we are surprised when a unionist politician is, once again, caught lying. That is all they have left in their locker. Their scenario is just the same as 79′ and 97′, and as one who remembers very well the scare stories over Linwood, Ravenscraig, Bathgate, Roysyth, and deep coal mining being no more if we voted Yes. When the M.O.Ds own figures confirm, along with their private contractors they employ just 520 at Faslane,and now we have been told that they don’t even live in the area. When we get rid of the abomination of nuclear weapons in this area, there will be a positive dividend with the headquarters of the Scottish Defence based there, and even more importantly, the threat of a nuclear accident being removed once and for all from West central Scotland. On the Scottish Government’s figures, the proposed £1 billion cost to the Scottish people of Trident’s replacement, would create 15,000 new jobs in the West of Scotland. I don’t know, and don’t care where the put these weapons, although according to the Guardian newspaper, they cant be based at Devonport, Plymouth, because, wait for it, ” if there was an accident it could cause the deaths of 11,000 people”, say the M.OD. Wow. How many would it cause in it’s present location? Since, as far as I am aware we can’t even fire the damn things without getting the codes from the Americans, they can just give them back, and base them at Kings Bay Georgia, where the refits are carried out anyway, and David, Nick, Ed and co can go on pretending we are still big boys and need our seat at the top table in the U.N. Even the American military realise they sheer futility when they suggested earlier this year that the U.K Government abandon nuclear weapons, and concentrate on building up their convential forces. And as far as taking ten years to get rid of these monstrosities, Spain did it in three years so there is no need for this extended time scale. Vote Yes, and make Scotland a safer country.

  17. She of the tortured vowel sounds has been comprehensively booted up her fat arse, again. Mr Pollock deserves a big hug from us all for his excellent contribution to the debate.

    “Fat arse” you’ll get no apology from me. The gloves are off!

    • Well done, Mr Pollock and Mr O Luain.. Yes, jackie is not a babe but then neither are most politicians in this country, male or female. The fact is that she IS obese and was, incredibly, a Shadow health Minister beggars belief.
      She has lied for Scotland and she has lied for The UK, of that there is no doubt. However, people have to challenge her lies at every point to expose her as the fraud that she undoubtedly is.

  18. Jackie Baillie is an utter liar. She has not a shred of conscience or scruple. Her figures are totally fabricated and she knows it. One day soon, hopefully she will be sent packing.

    Every Friday lunchtime, the A82 is blocked by lanes of traffic heading south. There are no service personnel to be seen in Helensburgh on a daily basis. However, there are plenty of English ex-service early retired folk doing part-time work to boost their pensions living there.

    The surrounding towns of Dumbarton, Alexandria and Balloch have some people with jobs at ‘the base’ but for the most part they are ghost towns similar to Hellensburgh, full of the poor, poorly paid and out of work people. Most commute for work to Glasgow. If these phantom jobs at Faslane existed, would W.Dunbartonshire have the second worst unemployment in Scotland?

    Meanwhile Baillie’s ugly mug and uglier vowels are never off the telly or radio spreading BT’s miserable lies. I wonder what she’s got to say about the link above describing the MOD’s ‘get-out’ clause to contractors for any ‘potentially catastrophic accidents’ at the base?

  19. Unionism NI – with a dash of racism and the threat of violence.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27616319

    Have a listen to Anna Lo.

    This is both distressing and disturbing.

    This is the United Kingdom.

    The Kingdom of Unionism.

    I’ll be voting Yes

    I’m sure that a Yes result will produce a Scotland

    where Anna Lo could live free from fear

    and safe from the racism that has always been a part of Unionism.

  20. Consider this – is this is a ‘Union’ why does Scotland not have access to Westminster’s books, spends and secret papers? Surely as an equal partner Scotland (contributes all it’s revenues to) should have this to ensure transparency and fairness.

  21. Scottish Political Education -Theatre style. FASLANE

    The scene is a private lounge in Gleneagles Hotel. The characters are the US Ambassador and his head of
    AMB: You’re drink’s OK?
    AT: Scottish water…fine.
    CIA: Mr Trout…
    AT: Call me Alex
    CIA: Mr Trout, you are aware of our concerns.
    AMB: Alex, excuse these young Turks. They‘re Texas aggressive… too much time fighting the Taliban.
    CIA: Faslane is vital to the effective defence of the Unites States…
    AMB: … and Europe and the UK….
    CIA: …they are vital strategic defence facilities for NATO and our nuclear strike capability-North sea based, secure and essential to the deployment of our IBMs and NWS security.
    AMB: Intercontinental ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads storage, sorry Alex.
    AT: I have been briefed.
    AMB: You don’t want a Scotch in that water?
    AT: It’s Scottish enough… bottled just across there.
    CIA: (Annoyed at the interruptions) We must retain access to Faslane for our nuclear fleet. We are here to make a deal. What do you want?
    AT: I’ve had subtler approaches.
    AMB: Sorry Alex, we’ve lots goin on.
    CIA: (Goes to his briefcase and brings out a document)
    This is our position. We will support your case for Independence diplomatically. Washington still has some clout. We will support you economically and advise some of our companies on the joys of investing in Scotland.
    AT: Thanks but our political position is no nuclear weapons in Scotland.
    AMB: Then we will lease the entire base. We have experience. 18 American military bases around the world. Scotland would make it 19.
    AT: …and if we say no again.
    CIA: Don’t fornicate with us Mr Trout. Your economy will collapse within two years. If you are not with us you are against us. We will be happy to tell the 125 American corporations currently in Scotland that we no longer want them here. They will listen to us I assure you. We will use all our media assets to so denigrate this fine country of yours that not a single American tourist will even stopover in transit. Your whisky will attract a series of new additional taxes . We will not recognise your tartan fking passport at our borders. Am I making myself clear?
    AMB: We will meet with you again next week Alex. Give you time to talk it over with your boys. Thanks for the game.

    What will/should AT’s response be?

  22. Reblogged this on The Babel Fish and commented:
    If the Faslane base is so good for the local economy, what on Earth is wrong with Helensburgh? This letter to Jackie Baillie (local Labour MSP) by David Pollock suggests some answers.

  23. Labour have used the tactic of fear for many years to maintain their control of the vote. (This made them the ideal team to front the BT campaign.)
    The shipyards will close / Albion trucks will close / Rootes will close / The mines will close/ Ravenscraig will close. The poor are told you will get poorer without Labour to protect you. (Labour opened the door to American payday companies and food bank use accelerated during their 13 years in power?)
    The industries that are in gradual decline through a lack of investment are told only Labour can protect you. Look at the Labour heartlands – Inverclyde / Lanarkshire etc. Areas with the highest unemployment because this was the centre of industrial activity 50 years ago – the well deserved legacy/loyalty vote won by a party with the same name in the first half of the 20th. century which no longer exists..

    Scotland is being managed into decline and this is supported by current Labour policies. The Faslane jobs are false claims.
    As the writer stated use your eyes.
    The three top wealth GENERATING regions in the UK at present are
    London
    The SE of England
    Scotland

    Only the first two appear on the wealthiest AREA map.

    How do the unionists do it?(and please accept that “unionist” includes the current Labour party)

    Boiling the Frog
    The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.

    Time to get out!

Trackbacks

  1. Questions About Faslane | Peter A Bell
  2. A weekly view from this guy | Aye Right radio
  3. The #IndyRef Weekly Review #1: Vote No Borders, the UK Treasury and Project Fear | National Collective
  4. #IndyRef Weekly Review #1: Vote No Borders, the UK Treasury and Project Fear | FreeScotland
  5. Questions About Faslane | Robertmcsevney's Blog
  6. Jackie Ballie Labour MSP Consummate Liar Exposed | caltonjock

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