Welcome to North Britain

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By Mike Small

For my friends, the ‘Proud Scots’, congratulations on your victory. Now there’s good news and some bad news for you No voters.

The good news: your vague ‘sense of Britishness’ is secure. Hurrah, no need to worry yourself any more.

The bad news: you have opened the door to £25 billion of austerity measures that will redefine the fabric of our society. On the plus side, you’ll still be able to get The Archers, so while people living in destitution sounds harsh, you won’t be inconvenienced.

The good news: the media is busy telling everyone that ‘home rule’ is coming to Scotland.

Bx7BGk7IMAADXXM.png-largeThe bad news: Gordon Brown just made that up. He’s not in government, it’s not yet 24 hours after the polls closed and the ‘Vow’ is unravelling before our eyes. Already the timetable has disintegrated. Couldn’t they have waited until the weekend before pulling it?

Apparently “Baroness Goldie” thinks appointing “Lord Smith” to reform Scottish democracy is a “strong” move.

The good news: ‘Unionists’ are so happy at the result they’re burning the saltire in George Square, singing the Famine Song and telling asians to leave the area. Is this ‘No Borders’ with a twist? Luckily, you’ve defeated ‘narrow nationalism’.

The bad news: Nigel Farage says “absolutely clear” the Barnett Formula will have to be reconsidered. He’s not alone.

Your victory has left Scotland disempowered and isolated. 73% of over 65s voted No. 71% of 16/17 year olds voted Yes. The young & the poor voted to build a new country & a better future.But the old & the rich said it’s not worth the risk.

45% of Scotland doesn’t want to be part of Britain.

Did you think that by voting for less powers you would get more powers? Funnily enough that’s not what’s going to happen. Already the agenda has moved swiftly on to home rule for England.

So – congratulations Proud Scots – an evening of celebration perhaps? Just avoid George Square, there’s a riot on.

 

 

 



Categories: Commentary

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220 replies

  1. Given Scotlands lower life expectancy..do the maths. We can do this within the next 10 years if not sooner 🙂

    • Rich old people tend to live longer.

    • We can also help them on their way by removing free prescriptions and free bus travel. Maybe drop the winter payment too?

      Yep, I’m bitter, but then again THEY have killed my future and somebody has to pay for free tuition etc etc so why not the ones who cost us an awful lot more?

      I don’t expect this to be a vote winner, but the harsh truths rarely are.

      • It’s such a shame. The section of population who had skilled labour jobs, free health care and free education on bursaries not loans do not want that for anyone else. It’s unfair to condemn that whole section of society though…. but it does rankle.

        Our youth going into a low skilled job future… they should be the ones getting free bus passes.

      • Perhaps we should force the No voters to wear a little red star or something on their clothes in public? Then they’d be more easily identified and it would be simpler for us superior Scots to deny them all kinds of their human rights. iScotland would be a great place to live and truly a beacon for the world.

      • Please let me keep my bus pass and free prescriptions. Even after the referendum result, I will continue to wear my YES badge with pride, to show that I was not one of the old people to consign Scotland to a permanent gerontocracy. The selfish over 65s who voted NO have condemned themselves to be forever surrounded by the aged, infirm and demented, cared for by the poorly paid middle-aged. The ambitious mothers who voted NO have set conditions whereby their educated children will have to leave Scotland to make a decent living. Their choice would be either to pull up old roots in Scotland and move to be near their grandchildren, or see them rarely on short visits, slowly loosening family bonds.
        I will wear my YES badge to show that YES, I wanted the oil money to be the seed corn to set up the infrastructure that would enable us to set up, bring in or retain well-paid jobs in Scotland. I’m glad I was not one of the NO voters who unwittingly have said to the youth of today, ‘There will be NO worthwhile jobs here’. Gordon McAuslane.

        • Why will you lose your prescriptions free bus passes etc..? That a decision made by the Scottish Government which by the way is still SNP controlled

      • I was born in Glasgow, worked for over 45 years – paid every penny of tax asked of me; paid into the NHS with my weekly contributions for 45 years and expected, as paid for, a Pension at the end of my working life and some peace and quiet to enjoy the rest of my life away from prats – and then you and your “me, me, me” eejits come along, expecting everything for nothing, contributing nothing, but want everything on a bloody plate – yea, sure, welcome to your kind of freeloaders’ Scotland – NOT.

    • We can also help them on their way by removing free prescriptions and free bus travel. Maybe drop the winter payment too?

      Yep, I’m bitter, but then again THEY have killed my future and somebody has to pay for free tuition etc etc so why not the ones who cost us an awful lot more?

      I don’t expect this to be a vote winner, but the harsh truths rarely are.

      • This is not a harsh truth just bitter and spiteful ageism. Does the politics of spite have any place in iScotland ? So we are going to have compulsory euthanasia for over 65 NO voters? Soylent Green? Get a grip. This is pathetic victimising politics. Blame the electors for not voting your way ? The Yes campaign did not overcome the natural conservatism of the over 55s. Yet it can do as the arguments are so strong – and real democrats will seek to find a way to persuade the older age groups – yes us 60s children – that iScotland fulfils our pwn teenage dreams of 50 years ago. I’m a rUK born over 60. And I pay my taxes. I should have been a definite NO statistically on both counts, but I am not a number I am a free man. I also teach History and Modern Studies to a wonderful group of enthused and idealistic students who have their own ‘crap detectors’ (read Postman and Weingartner, Jim) and have not been fooled by media bias or the fallacious arguments of the self seeking establishment and big business. We live in a corporate state. Even my S2s tell me, unprompted, that the BBC is biassed.
        However, it is my role at this time to give them hope, encourage them not to give up and regroup. And they have to be taught to think for themselves and critically in an unbiassed way. We all need to learn how to succeed in pursuing our idealism and hopes for a fair and equal society. In an earlier time us oldies were simply put up against a wall and shot or – or starved to death as in the Highlands. The Scotland painted of victimising those who don’t follow your beliefs and who are vulnerable simply to gain a demographic advantage in a future indyref is not a society for which I will vote. These views are part of the problem, not the solution. Best if you keep your mouth shut as these views – just as Sillars’ ‘day of reckoning’ comment – will only give support to the anti democratic British state.

      • I am retired, my husband is still working at the age of 66, we have taxes all,our lives and still doing so. I can understand why some young people feel bitterness over the older generation vote but please remember we live in a democracy, not a dictatorship. I ave worked for my free prescriptions and bus pass so do not see why anyone should take these away. Can I also say a lot of first time voters must be well over voting age and maybe if they had voted since they were age to do so we might have stood a better chance. I voted yes as did my husband, we have members of the SNP all our voting lives and always been concerned about the apathy of non voters at elections. So maybe some of need to be taking a thought to yourselves. How many of you that are baying for pensioners blood could have voted before. Look at previous percentages of people that have voted in the last few elections. If more had voted, as I said we would have been in a much stronger situation. Some of you may have to look a wee bit closer to home before throwing needless accusations!

    • You are utterly delusional kendomacaroonbar. You will not have this chance again in your lifetime. You can vote whatever the hell you like but the option of a referendum will be legally impossible from this day on.

      We are an international laughing stock – us & Quebec, the only people on the planet stupid enough to say “we can’t run our own country”.

      Young Scots – the best advice anyone can give you is leave because nobody is going to listen to ANYTHING Scotland has to say now.

      No voters – I don’t want to hear ANY complaints from you ever again. You voted for what is going to happen.

      • Some of the angry and nasty comments here understandable, letting a lot of emotion out. But they’re not the way to move forward. 2 things; look at the existing powers of the scottish parliament and how to maximise their effectiveness. And think cooly, strategically and effectively how best to approach additional powers negotiations. Don’t get hung up on timescales and rant at the loss of the opportunity for independance. That’s self defeating. 55% of us voted against it! for whatever reason. That’s a fact and no use ranting about it. We are democrats aren’t we? Accept that and make devolved powers work for us rather than ranting about the British state. Be kind and tolerant. But be smart also. That’s the best way to progress things effectively. Part of the reason I voted yes was because I believe the scots as a people are smart and able to make their country effective for us all. The smart thing is to accept reality and work with it, not slag of the majority who voted no. That’s just the same as slagging off the English…

        Take time, think clearly, outsmart the ruling elite. We won’t do that by behaving as victims or insulting our fellow scots who, for the most part, voted for what they thought was best for Scotland too.

      • puerile simplistic fool.

    • Stop moaning you jocks had the chance to fuck off. But you didn’t want it now stop whingeing

    • Behind the joke I accept the demographic profile, but having left the SNP in 1979 when they handed Thatcher Westminster and joined Labour to spend a couple of decades removing the Tories and ending up with Tony Blair you can understand why I do not give an expletive. The Britain First / SDL facebook event mentioned above is an irrelevance. We wrinklies do not have a problem with the Welfare State UK.
      The Yessers have simply lost a battle in a war they will win. Really if we do not turn Green soon it is all an irrelevance.

  2. Proud to be 65 and voted yes.

    • Maybe for a referendum which is, as Cameroon was keen to emphasise, about a never ending future the old should be disenfranchised. Cardinals over 80 don’t get to vote for a new Pope – and that’s a future of at most a couple of decades. (I’m one of the old, BTW).

      • Cardinals over 80 don’t get to vote because the Vatican is afraid that some of them could drop dead in the conclave while the papal election is proceeding. If that happens during an election or referendum, all very sad, but it won’t affect the final result, so let the old folks have their say like everyone else.

    • And I am proud of you for it as a young one.

      My great aunt, one well into her 90’s who can remember the great depression of the 30’s and was one of the real people who built the countries back up after the wars and voted Yes.
      And to quote her it was because she was seeing the same trends in power as she saw back then, and the same attitude towards the people, and no one should suffer that, ever.

      The ones around their 50’s 60’s right now, came from a time of privilege, came into a world that was being pushed by the travesties of that depression and the wars for better, the idea that such suffering was forever unacceptable (how far we have fallen since then, and I am ashamed to say I was once one such person.).

      Totally free medical care and education, jobs for all, pensions and welfare that matched the cost of living, no housing bubbles to worry about or massive amounts of personal debt, a fair legal system accessible to all. They, have had it easy. And still do while all this time the UK is being asset and service stripped to the bones and inequality, the thing to worry about most, getting progressively worse and called progress.

      To quote a US millionaire, we are heading toward a level of inequality now that has not been seen since feudal France, if we continue on our path we can only come to expect the same at our doors.

      Personally from all I can research since the No vote, its hard to deny that those who voted No did so for no other reasons than fear and selfishness. To quote one that had to be helped to the polling station “I am too old for change”.

      That may be, but your lifestyle is secure regardless, we would see to that and intend to enhance it. Our future you have just put in serious danger. And for the fact we, not you, will be the ones fighting for survival these coming decades it is not a statement to be proud of.

      As to the No chap at the polling station, stop waving the Union Jack and Saltire at me saying we are both of these, its got nothing to do with that, if you cannot differentiate between serious social and economic problems and flag waving, they you really should not be directing my, and the future of coming generations.

      • I think the highest number of no voters was the over 65’s. The 50’s like me were in the same category as the 25’s+ in terms of numbers voting for yes.
        It is hard to feel any positivity toward an older generation who may well have made the biggest contribution in making Scotland a worse place to live than it should be. That is devastating for our young, their future is in the balance. While there were many over 65’s who voted yes and how wonderful that is, there were two types of no’s in that age group that I met.

        There were the lovely old ladies who had believed and were taken in by the media onslaught of lies. Then there were the older more affluent types, ie most of my neighbours, who were fully aware of the postiive arguments for Scotland’s independence, and who have access to the internet, even had the wee blue book,
        who did have their free degrees, good jobs, and cheap mortgages and now they benefit from all of the freebies that our government has given them. We will not be so lucky.

        I cannot at the moment, forgive the older affluent folk who have just pulled a very big ladder up behind them, I can forgive the misinformed and misled old ladies I met last
        weekend.
        Things feel very different now for Scotland, not sure it even feels like the same country. Very sad indeed.

      • well said but it’s such a tragedy

    • Proud to be 74 and voted yes. Well done Dougie. I hope we are both around for the next one.

      • Hetty, I completely agree. I will find it impossible to forgive the educated affluent over 65s who voted No in sufficiently large numbers to damn future generations, but I can forgive the simpler ones who were conned by the media. It’s making me consider my membership of several groups that has this demographic as members.

        They weren’t to know though, that their votes would be so crucial, simply because their demographic is so large. According to the 2011 census, 990,000 are aged 65+.

        That said, I did quite a bit of canvassing in middle class parts of Edinburgh and I was meeting quite a bit of resistence from people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, who were displaying the ‘I’m all right, Jack’ attitude, and feeling that devolution was enough, and not prepared to face the risks of making a complete break.

        Then it also turns out that quite a number of people suddenly felt British after all.

        • Please can I point out that the bar chart showing these percentages comes from Lord Ashcroft’ s exit poll — ONE EXIT POLL!!!! I found this mentioned today on Twitter by Hugo Rifkind. If any of you want to find it my Twitter account is @Watts Wilma .I retweeted it this morning. Now I am not saying that many OAP s didn’t vote No but I think to condemn a whole section of society is dangerous and very divisive. And no doubt that could even been intentional. Some of the most passionate Yes voters I know are in their 80s so please don’t fall for the propaganda, remember they are very good at divide and rule.

      • The best way to get a real idea of how bad this poll is to look at the full data tables. Within a minute I found one group that only had 4 respondents with one person asserting a certain claim, resulting in a final statistic of 25%. How can you extrapolate that to the nation as a whole? Simple answer is that you can’t. I’m not sure what Lord Ashcroft’s agenda is in producing such poor data, but he’s certainly pulling the wool other somebody’s eyes. I’m surprised that Yes voters are using data provided by a Tory peer. Maybe he is interested in dividing and ruling? Just a thought.

  3. Scotland is blessed or should that be cursed with North Sea oil, gas and a great place to dump nuclear weapons, did we honestly believe that the London Power Elites, bankers, corporations, globalists would seriously permit us to leave ?

    • Indeed, just for a moment I even had hope that we would be allowed a democratic choice, how very silly, the corporate, global greedy elite were at the helm all the time, we were puppets. They would normally kill a leader of a country for oil, or start a war in an oil rich country, but this being a western country they manipulated and brainwashed the people instead. The aftermath will not be pretty for the poor, the affluent will not suffer. We have to help the people who will bare the brunt of the onslaught of cuts coming to Scotland in any way we can.

  4. If Scotland is ‘North Britain’, does that mean my country is ‘South Britain’? Fuck that for a laugh.

    • Yes, it does. North Britain and South Britain were the names intended to replace Scotland and England after the 1707 union. This is why there was a North British Railway company and a North British Hotel as a foremost hotel in Edinburgh. Strangely England does not seem to have been so keen to give up its identity,

  5. It was unlikely, but clearly that got worried it was possible, therefore IT IS

    • Scotland. IS NOT North british it is a nation in its own rights!!

      • Over half of our countrymen and women gave those rights away last Thursday 😦

      • Not in the eyes of the rest of the world you aren’t. I have friends in Scotland who voted Yes and I was supporting them from “across the pond,” even against some trash-talking English friends. That being said, I feel those who voted yes were robbed of a chance to control their own fates. The world has looked upon Scotland with a sense of hope. You represented Democratic Independence in it’s truest form, instead you told the world you are not ready for the responsibility that comes with ruling yourselves (or you don’t feel your children/grandchildren are.) We currently have groups fighting and dying for their own independence. They do not have the opportunity to simply vote. You were handed that “golden ticket” on a silver platter and you chose to pass, for whatever reason, on the chance to obtain what others die for. So yes, in the eyes of the world, Welcome North Britain!

      • Brandon,

        Scotland is only regarded as north British by those who are not educated in the discipline of geography or those who simply don’t have a clue.

        It is way over the top to rank Scottish independence alongside independence struggles in violent regimes where people die for the cause. Scotland/England went through that hundreds of years ago and have moved on since then. The last battle being WWII of course in an attempt to prevent subjugation of the whole of the British Isles by the Nazis, where English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish and many other stood side-by-side as brothers to retain a free Europe and a free world.

        On the whole, the relationship between Scotland and England is peaceful and benevolent and this vote was freely given by Westminster when the Scottish Parliament demanded it. The conduct of the poll was largely left to the Yes movement, the question, the date, giving the vote to 16 year olds and above etc and even with those advantages, the people of Scotland rejected that. This is not a sign of weakness, but the sign that those who cared about the future of the country genuinely thought that the best way forward was as part of one of the most successful unions in modern times.

        The risk is that the country will tear itself apart no with bickering and petulance over the result rather than using the opportunity to get a fairer deal than they have had in the last 40 years or so in particular.

        Scotland is a nation in its own right and it remains part of a union by the will of its people. If the Yes vote had won, the no voters would be left feeling similarly disenfranchised, but the Scottish parliament chose a simple majority referendum with a single, simple, positively-worded question. Participation was huge. We can be sure that Scotland has spoken and the result is as it is under those rules. Yes, it was not a singular voice, but Yes voters seem to think it was and that No voters are somehow traitors. That is a dangerous path to tread.

  6. Please do not make the mistake of demonising the English. Many of us south of the border are in sympathy with your ideals and aspirations. We do not have the option of asserting our national identity in opposition to what is happening in our society, but we feel every bit as alienated as you from the elite that are controlling our country and claiming to speak in our name.

    I am deeply afraid that “English laws for English people” will be seized on by those in the Conservative Party who want to pull it in the direction of the far right. I am proud to live in Manchester, a vibrant, multicultural and forward-looking community. I have supported Labour faithfully all my life and, until now, have never been tempted to vote for anyone else. Now I am, but where do I go? Our present MP is a Liberal Democrat who scraped into the seat on the back of a protest vote against the Iraq War by telling barefaced lies that our local hospital was to close. I cannot put my faith in him or his party.

    What we need is a new progressive party of the Left, a Common Weal outwith Scotland. I hope that in some way I can be part of that process. You have much to teach us. You are right to distrust the English press and media, and the political and business elite. But please do not entirely lose faith in the English people.

    • Apart from some idiots, and there are always some on all sides, we don’t want to demonise people in England (or anywhere else). Lots of people in Scotland have friends and relatives there or originally lived there. This past while, we have simply been trying to do what we thought is best for Scotland – nothing to do with hating the English.

      I do share your concerns about “English Laws for English people”. Since we’re together again for now, here’s hoping we can stop that. At least the Scots have shown that people can (peacefully) strike panic into Westminster. That’s a start.

    • Was nice to read this, however we have just lost all hope in England’s ability to fix things I’m sorry Westminster is just too powerful and corrupt (along with their allies in big business/media etc)… for us the only chance we had was to go our own way and do it ourselves… we were hoping that would be a big enough shake up to start the ball rolling for everyone else in the UK. I genuinely don’t believe for a second that even a small percentage of yes voters are demonizing the English and not Westminster though, its just a few nutters. Everyone i know sympathizes with you too.

      • It’s a hard thing to say to you right now but if your concern is truly to “start the ball rolling for everyone else in the UK”, that might be more likely after a No vote than after a Yes. Independence for Scotland would allow the English to distance and dismiss the whole thing as your nationalist sentiment, and therefore irrelevant beyond Scotland. But now we must face the truth that it is about far more. It’s about identifying and harnessing alternatives that go way beyond a straightforward protest vote. I don’t expect this to make you feel better, but you have kicked off a process that cannot just be limited to Scotland.

    • Like your comment mefinx, I know we have many friends in the rest of United kingdom as well as across the globe. Who, far from laughing at us are proud of how we stood up to a corrupt government, media and rotten to the core corporate ‘elite’..I’ve had commiserations from friends in Wales, England and US who understand how low I am feeling.
      Anyway I do hope you find someone decent you can vote for who will be one of many who will fight on your, and like-minded folks, behalf. Sooner rather than later.
      Kindest regards

    • I believe this is the view of many English people. Do you not have socialist parties?

    • we Scots are not as the English press and the british broadcasting corporation portray us to be i.e ‘Nationalists’, on the contrary, we are internationalists who would love nothing more than to join hands with our working class friends in England and jointly push those self seeking little men and woman in Westminster who, (call themselves politicians) into LaLa land, La La land is a place where certain people of very low principal go for a 20 year term to try to understand what principal means, its been reported that it can also have them cured from living their lives as unscrupulous, greedy and couldn’t give a shit little individuals whos aim in life is to break every rule and promise, in the hope of making their constituents very unhappy subservient little subjects.
      We Scots wanted Independence to reinstate ‘Democracy’ and as for the wealth we have that the Westminster imperialists have fought so hard to keep within their rich little Bubble well: contrary to what you have all been fed by the ‘Daily Mail’ and all the rest of the establishments media lackeys. we would been more than happy to share that wealth with our brothers and sisters in England. We have lost the battle brother but. the war continues!! and Westminster knows it, we had their wee bums squeaking, the next time we will watch them shitting themselves. your Scottish friend, Jack.

      • You’re a bad loser, Jack. For whatever reason, most Scots don’t want independence. They voted No because they realise that, in this day and age, the fragmentation of a small country like the UK is a nonsense. Nationalism is a daydream, for the English as much as for the Scots, and the future wealth and security of our two countries lies in our unity. Whether we like it or not, the EU and NATO are the foundation stones on which we must build our mutual destiny, and a referendum on independence is just like playing musical chairs on the Titanic.

      • Geoffrey

        a) Nationalism had *nothing* to do with it.

        b) Would that be the EU that Westminster’s threatening to leave?

      • “Would that be the EU that Westminster’s threatening to leave?” rabthecab

        No rab, it’s the EU that the UKIP is threatening to leave. Fat chance.

        If nationalism had nothing to do with it, what’s all this fuss about Scotland, then?

    • I think you can join the SNP or the Wales party, Plaid Cymru, they are asking people to join, in solidarity. Also the greens many people are turning to the greens. ( I hope I got the name a spelling of PC correct!)

    • MEFINX.Please write to yesparty.co.uk and leave your contact details.
      I am no good at links, sorry, but if you go to Livestreaming events page there is a message I am sure you would like to hear and, please all others who read this page. It is a plan to carry the Yes message to Westminster not just for Scotland but for the whole of the United Kingdom. After all the majority of Scots have voted for the One Nation idea so we might as well use all we have learned in this Campaign and take the message to the wider UK.
      I would also like to say that I understand totally the anger at the over 65s who voted No out of fear or selfishness. Like another commenter, I am going to wear my Yes badges because I hold ALL NO voters to account. I am also leaving up my Yes notices until they fall off. I live on a main road into our village .We have a large Yes on the roof. It will stay there and as the road deteriorates because of lack of funding it will be a reminder to every No voter that they voted for these conditions. And if any of these people moan at me about anything I will go through them like a dose of salts. We must build on what we have. The LSE professor, Dunleavy, thinks Britain is going to be in turmoil until 2020– 2015 General election, 2016 Scottish Election, 2017 in/out EU referendum — BUT he thinks by 2018 we could have another Referendum. We need to keep up the pressure.
      PS my husband is an Englishman in his 70s who voted Yes, so people please don’t make assumptions.

      • Thanks for keeping your sign up and badges on. I have decided to do the same, as solidarity is so important right now. Yesterday driving around Edinburgh where 61% voted No, (which must have been much higher in more affluent areas like mine as Leith and Craigmiller were 4:1 Yes) I was convulsed with rage and disgust as I realised that most of my fellow citizens that I saw on the street and was interacting with must be traitors. I went into a complete melt down for a while and drove around cursing them all madly (nobody could hear me inside my car, it was just a kind of therapy to get my rage off my chest).

        It was a sickening and disorienting experience, mass betrayal. I felt that I had been exiled by my own country, that I had no country, I was bereft. But the one thing that rallied me was seeing Yes stickers on cars and Yes posters and banners still up on houses. It comforted me to know that there were still pockets of Scotland left.

        I feel much better today, my black rage is lifting, but not my view of the folly of the Noes.

      • Thanks for the link. I’ll be checking it out.

    • Im tempted to vote Green but fear its a wasted vote, and i will against my better judgement NEED to vote Labour just to get the Tory scum out of office

  7. I wonder how many of those behaving so ‘exuberantly’ on George Square and telling Asians to ‘go home’, even though said Asians were probably born and bred in Scotland, will get an Indian or Chinese takeaway on the way home?

    • Glasgow Rangers supporters, Orange Lodge Loyalist types, let’s put it this way, they’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

      • My husband is a Rangers supporter, despises the Orange Lodge and gave up his prized season ticket over 10 yrs ago because he couldn’t stand the bigotry. He’s also been associated with the SNP for over 40 years. He has faithfully delivered many rounds of leaflets for both the SNP and Yes campaigns. Please don’t tar everyone with the same brush because all you do is bring yourself down to the same level of those that caused all the crap that’s happened in George Square tonight. They didn’t do it is name and they don’t do it in mine.

      • Well said Gizasmum I have many friends who are rangers fans and voted yes.
        A thug is a thug .

      • Hear hear Gizasmum. My twitter feed was going crazy last night with Rangers (ex) supporters washing their hands of the club forever, as they were just as disgusted by the rest of us at the carnage in & around George Square.

        My brother-in-law is also a Rangers supporter – I don’t even need to speak to him to know what he would have thought of it all.

      • Please dont generalise with that comment. I have been a Rangers fan all of my 59 years – and it has nothing to do with religion and the Orange Lodge etc. I do not sing the sash, I do not sing GSTQ, or anything else.Although after watching the video footage from George Square on Friday, i can see where you are coming from.

  8. Working in London is not easy being a proud scot these past few months. I visited the Wallace memorial yesterday in a warm sunny day and prayed that my fellow country men and women would have the courage of our gallant warriors and simply vote yes. We are now a laughing stock and at the mercy of a ukip/Tory alliance.
    At 4 this morning I was awakened by a thunderstorm over London, as I looked out and put the news on I realised that Wallace and our heroes had finally lay down their weapons and went to rest.
    I travelled back today with a heavy heart, I do not have the same passion for my country today as I had yesterday. Will it come back I doubt it.

  9. There is no victory of the soul for the ‘Proud Scots’. We have handed control of the fairness and justice for our country to the Bullingdon Club and this will eventually be understood, and not just by those in the post-industrial decline council areas, including my own, North Lanarkshire.

    Yesterday’s vote means we have lost something and even the NO-voting Scots will begin to realise this. A fundamental part of the Scots character is to carry a sense of defiance that we suffer from a ‘yoke’ we haven’t had the power to shrug off. Yesterday changed this, and we are no longer able to blame our problems on frustrated impotence. There is no longer any externally imposed yoke and we are democratic participants in our own lot. We would have been happy to lose the frustrated defiance in return for real responsibility, but to lose it for nothing is miserable. It seems like a small thing, but in future when any of us hear the unofficial anthem, and the words about rising to be the nation again, it may be sung with the same vocal power but it will sound empty. Changes in self perception will take place, not necessarily instantly,but we should not underestimate the impact this will have on our sense of identity.We lost something yesterday and will all come to feel it soon.

    As an up to now Labour Party supporter, I had never been a great Alex Salmond fan, but with his resignation I felt a further disappointment in a day that didn’t need any more. His speech on Wednesday night was inspiring and his energy during the closing stages of the campaign was remarkable, in view of the pressures he faced and the forces lined up against him. A potential future independence campaign will need a strong leader as I can’t see the ‘Vow’ being fully delivered. Tonight’s reporting of the broader UK devolution mess indicates the magnitude of the problem, and I wonder what will happen if the UK votes to leave the EU? There is a lot of negativity now pouring out from England towards additional Scottish power.

    Today I have felt anger, frustration and sadness. I will take out my anger and frustration on the Labour Party, which I have supported since voting for the first time in 1979 (barring Blair’s wars). But tonight I’m left with the sadness.

    • SNP got at least 1,000 new members yesterday; others flocking to join Greens

    • Don’t be a bad loser. Wait and see. Its far to early to judge what lies ahead. Whatever it probably would have been worse if the vote had been yes.

      • How would it have been worse, with a YES vote?

      • Sorry Arthur but it wouldn’t be worse.We haven’t seen the worst of Osbourne’s austerity measures as the Scottish Govt have tried it’s best to lessen the effects so far.However they can only stretch their allocated budget so far, and, it will be cut again this year.

      • We will see a 4billion cut to our block grant for starters, then the Barnett formula will go, then westminster can do what they like, they will ruin Scotland, how the heck is that worse than a YES where we would be able to govern ourselves and decide how OUR money is spent? As it is the elite boys and girls in recess until 13th Oct, will unleash untold misery on us, can’t get worse than that far as I can see.

      • The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. This is how I see the people who voted “NO”.
        The Westminster boys club will continue to rape and pillage Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland as they have been doing since they gained power.
        Any promises made that had influenced voters will be lost in parliament never to be seen again.

      • maybe i am wrong but is this your second strange post the first if i am not mistaken questioned why would we lose free preciopions don’t you get it ! less money – cuts does that not ring a bell ? and this second one bad loser well arthur this referendum wasn’t lost it was stolen yes stolen by the establishment who stopped at nothing no lie was to extreme and because every media outlet turned a blind eye forgot what they were there for to question and examine the statements and promises by both sides the “YES” side was subject to forensic examination while the NO side got away with the most outrageous lies you could ever think of it was like living through a continuous political broadcast day and daily no no no no no cant cant cant dont dont dont the old people whose only information was from the newspapers and the trusted BBC they were lied to in the end they were so scared of their pension etc being lost when it came to it they panicked and trusted that liar brown and you have the cheek to call us bad losers god help us all if that is a common view of those who stole the future from so many kids who are still in school and wont find out until things start to go missing like books/ playing fields/school trips etc just because some old idiot couldn’t be bothered finding out the truth couldn’t be arsed trusted Labour all their lives even after it was pointed out their darling Labour was pissing on them they deserve all thats coming maybe they might waken from their bloody coma then when its too late bloody fools

  10. What a fabulous NO result, absolutely marvelous, fantastic. After all being a serf I know my place, on my knees, saying ” Yes Bwana, No Bwana ” to the London Power bankers Elite, that’s how I like it, completely brainwashed and servile.

  11. Reblogged this on The Celtic Footsoldiers and commented:
    Good post well put

  12. Faux-democracy at work (again and in microcosm): An auld fiddle since the Athenian PR racket under-pinned by generations of bought and sold “scholars” since.

    Something more radical is required, and the grassroots in Scotland and elsewhere point the way even if only raw plant-shoots, yet: MacLean, Lygate, and Connolly knew this, and, I suspect the FM did, too, but was prepared to give the rotting edifice of the status quo one last chance.

    Other avenues of human progress are starting to emerge out of the movement in Scotland and across the world to the point, I suggest and hope, even Gandhi would be stunned at the potential for peace-driven, fundamental changes to the ways we co-exist, govern ourselves, and manage our planet (and, soon, elsewhere?).

    However, at the moment, the citizens of Scotland (Alba) stand in the dock of global opinion as a laughing stock of spineless wonders who need to dig deep into their consciences and intellects in order to genuinely embrace our current, stunted reality and forge a more enlightened future.

    Out of this current amoral fudge (and allowing for any polls jiggery-pokery) a profound self-accounting needs to take place. If not, we consign ourselves and our future generations to a servile, Bantustani subsistence level lacking not only bread but intellectual and moral nourishment.

    Hopeful though I remain, as it stands, appalled at this immediate vista we have been told we have unveiled.

    What a parcel of rogues we are.

    • The 45% are not defeated and are not a parcel of rogues, this is a new beginning and you are helping no-one with your defeatist attitude.

      So what if we are called spineless wonders in the world – who put their heads above the parapet to support us – very few.

      No-one in Europe helped us, they either held back to see what would happen, or they actively worked against us, Barossa, the eejit from Spain who’s name escapes me, Barak Obama , Bill Clinton, the whole of the media, the BBC, Labour party, Lib Dums, Cons big business etc etc.

      It is an absolute wonder that we got 45% and don’t forget the 2 fire alarms during the count in Dundee. OAPs being told by paid BT activists that this would be their last pension etc etc.

      So save your anger and indignation for the correct folk.

  13. I know in my heart, when my 2 young granddaughters have families of their own, they will be born in a independent Scotland!.

    They union is like sevco, on life support!!.

    Keith.

    • We can only hope so. My sincere hope is that one day we down here will all have passports that say “Citizen of the Republic of England”, and you up there will have passports with the same wording, except “Scotland” instead, and we’ll meet and treat each other as equals and friends, rather than what we have now. If the Wastemonster clique and their subservient media lackeys expect us all to be happy and proud about their hollow victory, they can deal me out. I only feel disgust at their sly, underhand methods.

  14. Please remember many older people also voted Yes. This constant denigrating of older people – many of whom have ploughed a lonely furrow for independence since Winnie Ewing’s 1967 win in Hamilton, and actively contributed to the referendum campaign – is becoming a big turn off.

    • While true, the sad fact of the matter is that they have cost us our freedom for their own selfish reasons. I realise many voted Yes, and many were scared, but far, far more did it because they believed they were right.

    • Unfortunately, only 27% it seems.

    • I agree. The difference in life expectancy between rich and poor is perhaps as big a factor as lingering memories of the welfare state and an acceptable welfare state. There’s also their access to media of course, and we should be (and mostly are) blaming the messenger rather than those who receive the message

    • Agreed. I have supported independence since I became politically aware at the age of 14 in 1972 and I’m 56 now. My husband will be 61 next month and has been a nationalist for at least the same length of time. We have been loyal keepers of the ideals, and still are, during all this time. I can’t count the very many times we’ve had to defend those ideals, and the number of people we’ve converted to the same. We don’t take too kindly to being compared to those who are only in it for whatever their twisted minds think they’ll get out of staying in the Union. Congratulations to 71% of the 16 & 17 years that had the good sense to think of their futures. They will be the ones we can pass the torch to. It’s a tremendous pity that only 27% of the over 65’s could think the same. We’ll soon see how that pans out for them when their free personal care stops.

    • I completely agree with jingsandthings that it is vital to see beyond the voting statistics that represent older people (or any other group) as a homogenous group. Within any sector of society there are multiple strands of opinion.

      However, at the same time, and writing as someone in his mid-60s, I think that there is a ‘generational’ issue that sooner or later will come to the forefront of political debate. My generation enjoyed free university tuition, plus grants, plus reasonably good occupational pensions, plus a more or less satisfactory rate of housebuilding. We used up the planet, in terms of pollution, global warming and loss of species diversity. We failed to develop effective ways to deal with international conflict, leading to horrible situations in Syria, Palestine and elsewhere. Taken as a whole, my generation will leave the world a poorer place, compared to the world we inherited.

      This is harsh, but I think we need to face up to it.

      Of course, we are all willing to give anything, at a personal and family level, to help our children and grandchildren. But at a societal level we (and the political system that we have voted for) have failed to live up to our responsibilities.

      I believe that this is the context within which the No majority in older people is such a tragedy.

      • Look, the main significance of the over 65s voting No (73%) is simply that they are such a large demographic. Another group also voted No in very large numbers, and that is the English in Scotland. There are supposedly 400,000 English born in Scotland and only 25% of them were for indy. There are however 950,000 aged 65+, so they are twice the numbers, so more significant statistically, but all the same the voting patterns of English immigrants was very similar and significant. If 200,000 more had voted Yes, we would have won, English Scots for Yes notwithstanding. I mean I’m hesitant to put this forward, I don’t want to create divisions or alienate anyone, but the ethnicity of the English is also something we need to face. I had some fairly strong arguments with English friends in Scotland over this (one is no longer a friend, sadly) and there was fury that we were even having this referendum and that the whole of Britain wasn’t allowed to have its say. This was coming from quite sweet and reasonable people. They seemed to be unable to process the fact that 12 against 1 is rank bullying, so we would never win a UK wide referendum on this issue. Likewise they seemed unable to recognise that Scotland was a nation, not a region of the UK, and that we had a right to reconsider our national future.

      • @MBC, I;m not so sure “English born is Scotland” is a real category. If someone’s born in Scotland, they’re Scottish, don’t you think?
        Personally, I don’t want to blame the result on anybody. I want to understand why they weren’t ready for change.
        The work until the next referendum is to do whatever it takes to gain their trust.

  15. As a young student born in England and still living with ties in England, I am very sad and disappointed to see these results after such a brilliant campaign from ‘Yes’, which has reinvigorated politics across the UK. But although it may take a generation, I am determined that by the time I am 50, I will have myself Scottish citizenship in an independent Scotland and I will have left behind this England which offers no convincing political or cultural future.

  16. I know that when my 2 grand daughters have families of their they will be born in a independent Scotland!.

    The union is like sevco, on life support.

    Keith.

  17. I well remember the serfs of britishness celebrating in a similar way when they and their British masters fixed the Devolution referendum of 1979. I can remember the brash cackling of the No campaign when they had corrupted the process so that even although a majority of Scots voted YES Devolution was denied. But where are those cackling no voices now? Deposited in histories dustbin. You guys won’t be forgotten because you took on the might of the corrupt Brtiish Establishment and came close to a famous victory. You may have lost this battle but think how far you have come in the war. Just a matter of time and as a proud Welshman I am so envious of how far you have come. The finish line is in sight guys and remember the only defeat is not to try. SOAR ALBAN

  18. Sorry guys should have been SAOR ALBA

  19. The result of the referendum is merely a block on rapid change, most importantly, it doesn’t change the facts on the ground. The SNP and the Greens together means that there is still an absolute pro-independence majority in Parliament. The pro-indy campaign groups still outnumber the pro-union groups; no voters are more politically disengaged. The vote for independence was larger that the vote for the SNP, so large numbers of Labour and LibDem voters have been won over to the idea of independence, even in the face of unrivalled threats and promises. So yes still has the greater potential to grow.

  20. Tell us something we don’t know! Your article regarding your no vote because of your concerns with the YES campaign helped no one especially not the good of Scotland!

  21. Reblogged this on Morton-Grant Family Blog and commented:
    No surprise here!

  22. I am an elderly ‘coffin- dodger’ and one of the 45, I voted YES and I am not alone. I also know quite a few young folk who voted no. So please take care with stereotyping, we are all individuals. I am totally gutted too , maybe even more so, although I believe we will get our independence it will probably be after I’ve stopped dodging lol.
    Anyway I’m gonna continue to wear my YES & wings badges as well as leaving up my window posters as a sign that I haven’t given up hope.

    • I’m a 67 year old who voted yes. I have voted for the Labour party all of my working life ,but I will never vote for them again. I’m truly devastated by this result,not for myself but for the young generations who will have to endure the successive govts who will continue to waste the country wealth for there own greed.

    • I am another over 70 “Yes” voter! I was born in England and came up to Scotland 20 years ago and chose to make my home here. I took a degree up here for which I had to pay my own fees – I did not have free tuition fees. I voted “Yes” for the sake of Scotland and so did many of my friends, some of whom are from other parts of Europe. They are now very worried about their futures in Scotland and are already considering moving away from Scotland. They voted “Yes” for Scotland’s future and now their own futures are very unpredictable and uncertain. They are bitterly disappointed.

      We do have to find a way of moving forward together without recriminations. We have to work hard at this – it will be difficult to start with but we must persevere. People in my street of many different ages had “Yes” posters in their windows – none of us are planning to move away from Scotland any time soon! We are here to stay! 🙂

  23. Top Notch Mike.The total of votes cast for No by the over 65 yr group was close to 520,000! I spoke to lots of them who voted No due to serious fear about losing their pensions. Some thought their pension would be taken away by today – Friday. Very very sad day.

    ES SCOTLAND MUST TALK TO SNP ABOUT HOW TO WIN GENERAL ELECTION IN SCOTLAND 2015

    It’s time for the Yes Scotland Camp to consider the following idea in our progressive journey towards Independence.YES SCOTLAND should field candidates in every Scottish constituency at the UK general election next year and ask the SNP group of MP’s to also stand under the YES SCOTLAND banner. While this might seem sacrilegious to some SNP members, it is a way of making the next UK general election a referendum on Westminster rule and a consolidation of the fantastic achievements of the Yes Scotland campaign. A majority of MP’s elected under the banner of YES SCOTLAND – INDEPENDENCE in 2015 would be a clear mandate for Independence and if we achieved more than 50% of votes cast the case would be made for a declaration of Independence. We might even see a few MP’s like Ian Davidson losing their seats. The day of reckoning cometh…….if you agree please pass on to friends and post to your local SNP MSP a or councillor and YES SCOTLAND team so the idea can be discussed. We are not down; we are not defeated.

    • Patrick, you’ve NO idea how much your words have helped calm my frayed nerves!!! I was hoping to come back to live in Scotland in the very near future but after referendum & the vote rigging ( although still unproven) I am devastated, still not sure what to do for the best, but people like you & others on this site have helped restore my faith in people, Thank You Regards Fiona.I

      • HI Fiona. We can do this at the General Election if the SNP and Yes Scotland rally together again to harness the power of the people of Scotland as we did so well recently. I am in the process of writing to key players to moot the idea. But I think Alex stepped aside to let it happen because some people had the stereotype idea of him in their heads from the gutter media that Independence was all about him. Well that LIE is laid to rest and I believe we will win the General Election if Yes Scotland is the flag we fly under. I look forward to our MP’s of Yes Scotland gathering in Edinburgh and Nicola addressing the world media to say Scotland has just won a majority for independence and will begin negotiations immediately. Pass this idea to all the people you know.

    • Patrick, Great idea. I am an SNP member and would most definitely up for it.

      • sorry, be up for it!

      • Brilliant George. See my reply to Fiona above. We can we must and we shall do this. Why? Because our country is more important than anyone’s ego. Anyone picked already to stand for a GE constituency must be asked to reconsider……for the sake of Independence. We dont want jobs in London. We want SCottish independence. We voted for US in the referendum, not for a candidate. This time it must be essentially the same no matter whose name appears on the ballot. But it must be clear that each candidate is Yes Scotland for Independence candidate. I am an SNP councillor. Alex himself said during the referendum campaign that if he thought we would win the vote for Yes if he stood aside, he would do so. I too would step aside for my country every time. It is time to get people together and put the plan into action. Yes Facebook pages can be changed by adding the constituency names for the G Election. Please pass the idea among other SNP members and the Yes community. As Alex said we are the Guardians of Scotland; let’s keep the flame burning and turn a wee bit of Project Fear back on the Labour guns in Scotland. Let’s take their seats FOR SCOTLAND’s sake. As Burns said ‘Lord, send a rough shod Troop o Hell, O’er a’ would Scotland BUY or SELL, And grind them in the MIRE!!!’

    • this sounds like a great idea.If this could be achieved it would give me a candidate to vote for as I have always voted Labour. I am now in limbo as I cannot vote for them ever again.

    • Ian Davidson is foul, absolutely toxic. Let’s make it an aim to get this parasitic leech out in 2015!

      • We shall turn his Project Fear upon him and kick him out of his job. Project reason……..his day of reckoning cometh.

    • Patrick I posted your idea (fully credited to you) on our Songs for Scotland Facebook page, and the last time I looked it had 6,300 views. It is an excellent idea and it seems to me it has taken wing.

  24. YES SCOTLAND MUST TALK TO SNP ABOUT HOW TO WIN GENERAL ELECTION IN SCOTLAND 2015

    It’s time for the Yes Scotland Camp to consider the following idea in our progressive journey towards Independence.YES SCOTLAND should field candidates in every Scottish constituency at the UK general election next year and ask the SNP group of MP’s to also stand under the YES SCOTLAND banner. While this might seem sacrilegious to some SNP members, it is a way of making the next UK general election a referendum on Westminster rule and a consolidation of the fantastic achievements of the Yes Scotland campaign. A majority of MP’s elected under the banner of YES SCOTLAND – INDEPENDENCE in 2015 would be a clear mandate for Independence and if we achieved more than 50% of votes cast the case would be made for a declaration of Independence. We might even see a few MP’s like Ian Davidson losing their seats. The day of reckoning cometh…….if you agree please pass on to friends and post to your local SNP MSP a or councillor and YES SCOTLAND team so the idea can be discussed. We are not down; we are not defeated.

    • This sounds like an excellent idea to me, Patrick. If there *was* widespread vote-rigging in favor of “NO”, then it must mean that “YES” actually carried the day – So what if everyone simply continues to proudly wear their “YES” t-shirts, and display their “YES” badges, stickers, signs etc.?

      Onward !

      • ….and a Scottish Independence Tartan to gain financial support from Scots all over the world.

      • Precisely. I am continuing to wear my Yes t-Shirt very proudly! YOur idea is excellent Paul. I would not be too surprised about some vote counting giggerypokery, but it’s beset to try to re-focus energy on the coming general election.

    • I also think that Patrick’s idea is worth looking at. It has the advantage of keeping the momentum going in a tangible way.

    • I’m in favour of any idea that builds on what we have achieved, but I think everything needs to be thought through and it is not a negative to want to thrash out the pros and cons. First clarification: the SNP already has candidates in every constituency, so when you say YES SCOTLAND should field candidates, are you proposing to put up Yes Scotland candidates stand against those SNP candidates or just that these SNP candidates should stand as Yes Scotland?

      • Hi. We do need to build on our achievement. To do so it needs key people from Yes Scotland and leading SNP people to get together and work out a strategy. I am merely mooting the idea. You hit the crux of the problem perfectly. I am a member of the SNP and would stand aside for a YES candidate were I picked for a constituency if Yes Scotland produced the better candidate. We could only win this if all of the section of Yes stand together without acrimony. So, for instance, Stuart Hosie and all other standing MP’s from the SNP would, under this idea, stand as Yes Scotland candidates. The problem lies with slotting in a broad section of candidates from the YES Scotland team where SNP candidates have already been chosen. Will this work? The idea might seem sacrilegious to some SNP members, but what is our raison d’etre? Independence! If we are to harness the amazing community support of the YES campaign for the General Election we must lay aside Party for Country. We can do this people!

  25. Dummy spitting is hilarious.

    Also, let’s have a pop at the OAPs? Their vote shouldn’t count when we are talking about a future Scotland, how dare they?

    Since the choice of the people of Scotland was announced there has been nothing but vitriol, abuse, accusations of cheating and just about everything else on this website.

    There has been a few who have accepted the choice of the Scottish people and who are moving on, some with increased vigour, and more power to them.

    Accept the will of Jock Tamson’s bairns and, if you choose to, try to change their viewpoint for next time.

    Just stop wallowing in hatred.

  26. How little you know, how happy you will be
    #AlexSalmond #LordSmith #Commissioner #TreatyOfUnion #WhatDoesTheLawSay #Article15ToU #Article258TotFotEU

  27. But it wasn’t the choice of the people of Scotland was it fella! It was a result orchestrated by the British establishment with the help of organisations like the OO and others of a similar ilke. A result influenced by a reactionary British Nationalist cabal made up of the rich, reactionary right wing bigots that run the unionist state.

    Who do you think the Scottish heroes of the past would have backed, the reactionary right wing bigots like OO or the Scots patriots? The choice like it or not was between Scottish identity or British serfdom and this time British serfdom just scraped home. Next time it will be a different result more inkeeping with what Wallace or Bruce would have gone for as opposed to British serfs!

    • Perhaps if A S and Nicola had not been misleading the Yes campaigners you might have won.. Their blatant lies and their attitude that no one is right except us was a major factor in people voting no.
      If you want independence you need a leader like Gordon Brown who if nothing else sounds believable.
      Why can’t you accept the fact that right now more people voted no than yes and .why can’t you wait to see what happens.
      For sure if more devolution it not delivered you will have 100% yes at any future referendum.

      • Gordon Brown, you must be joking. The man’s a liar, a poor economist and the worst PM Westminster ever produced.
        We accept the result, but we don’t need to be happy with it.
        What blatant lies did the SNP and YES Scotland state, during the campaign?
        We won’t have to wait long to see what happens, promised new powers, booted into the long grass and the Westminster, no campaign lies shown for what they are.

      • Can you supply us with a list of ‘their blatant lies’? Thanking you kindly. Saor Alba

  28. Do you realise how Yes played such a positive campaign and stuck to the rules that when No broke them there were consequences. The Edinburgh agreement was legally binding so breaches have consequences one of which is article 15 which basically says we can send in the auditors to check its fair. As article 258 of the EU treaty says we can (and we are bound by article 3 & 4) to abide by European Law

  29. You guys should be very proud, you did a remarkable thing – you took on the might of the press and the media, the British establishment and its US master, you took on corporations, big business and big oil; and you came close to winning. 45% is astonishing in the face of all that. I very much hope that circumstances will combine to give you another shot in the near future.

    Good luck from N. Ireland.

  30. Ok truth is that Alex used Murdoch to ransom over the paper on polling day. No had been doing its worst and the SUn retaliation would reveal the awful truth. but luckily both parties agreed a new contract

  31. ” There has been nothing but vitriol, abuse, accusations of cheating and just about everything else .”

    A good description of the No campaign,

    • Also a good description of the yes campaign. Both were as bad as each other. What a messed up country. You are all opposite sides of the same coin and are not ready to run a village never mind a country.

  32. #TheElephantInTheRroomOkTruthIs ThatMurdochTriedToUseAlex to over the paper on polling day. No had been doing its worst (and breaking the rules – who are the rule keepers ?) and the SUN retaliation would reveal the awful truth. but luckily both parties agreed a new contract

  33. Nice to see the establishment are allowing the reporting of Unionist thuggery all of a sudden

  34. We might get another chance – when the devo-promises come to nothing.

    The useless income tax powers will likely be granted.
    But that will reduce the Barnett formula, with its balancing mechanism, leaving us worse off.

    Oil revenues will continue to flow south, until they eventually dry up.
    London will continue to get wealthier.. a mega city.. and Scotland won’t have any real powers to compete.

    The myth will eventually become reality – a genuinely subsidised Scotland, dependent on hand-outs.
    It’s sad that so many people don’t get this.

    Pretty hard to get independence then.

    But how can a devolved Scotland ever compete with London?
    Is there anything it can do with its limited powers to grow business?

    Can the Scottish Government start an investment bank or fund without independence ?
    Can it start an nationalised energy company, reducing power bills ?

    25% of Europe’s green energy potential has promise, especially when technology improves.
    Why shouldn’t that go towards cheaper bills in Scotland.
    Energy is one competitive advantage we do have.

    • I now have no bank that I want to put my money in , no newspaper that I want to read, no tv channel that I trust for news. All London controlled.

    • Westminster will pass a bill making it neigh impossible for a referendum ever to take place again.

      Its North Britain now and the violence yesterday is just the start, when North Britain gets bled dry, it will be a yearly occurrence, glad I do not live there.

      To those who say they are proud Scottish and British at the same time, fuck off. You cannot be both.

      I will always remain a Scot, never British!

      Scotland RIP.
      Grant.

      • Grant, we will rally the Yes Scotland team at the General Election and win the majority of seat next year. Keep the faith man.

  35. Mary Vasey

    Mary I am 66 and a“ 45“ but unfortunately people of my age have betrayed the young, its not stereotyping its a fact given the statistics.

  36. I’m gutted it’s hard to even understand the logic of a NO vote and more austerity more children living in poverty and more cuts to come foodbanks and sanctions it just doesn’t make sense Scotland the Brave now that’s a joke

  37. Great post Mike! .

    In the words of the great Joe Hill, executed by the state of Utah for being a labour activist, “don’t mourn, organise!”

  38. Early 60s, middle income & happy to embrace change with open arms. Active on Yes campaign for 14 long months, and won over a good few Yes voters.

    I want out of here now. I went through the 79 referendum and the aftermath. I saw hope of a real change emerge from Holyrood.

    Well, we’ll get real change alright. The smug No voters won’t care. The feart ones will seek escape in Eastenders, wall to wall football on TV, and the Broken Record.

    Right now my main concern is my son (early 20s), and his future. A bleak one if he stays here. But they want the good folk to migrate/emigrate. Easier to keep the rest under control.

    • See my comments above about getting Yes SCotland candidates for the election next year. Win the majority. Take out the Labour windbags and declare UDI. Sounds simple. But we can do it.

  39. We form parties, of all types, that believe in Scotland, an independent Scotland. The framework of a popular democracy has been built here. Westminster and its system are toxic to our body politic. Some of our populace have voted for more poison. We have developed immunity. No more referenda…we reclaim our country by right.

  40. I hope you this whilst tired and emotional Mike, and that after some sleep you realise it is needlessly divisive drivel.

  41. The tragedy, and it is a tragedy is that now the cuts are coming – forget the £25bn of cuts, Osbourne needs to save £100bn per year they will target the very people that have voted against Independence.

    The elderly.

    So maybe it’s unkind, but if you vote for a political system that rewards it’s own, that looks after it’s own supporters then you have to accept those are the choices you made. That’s Westminster and that’s what many of our OAP’s have chosen.

    When cuts are required, OAP’s should accept they made their choice and this is what’s coming. Get rid of the ‘extras’ they have here in Scotland thanks to the SNP and give them exactly the same as a pensioner south of the border.

  42. They couldn’t wait until the weekend, that’s when they ‘ll be announcing we’ re going to war. Wait and see.
    Sad, sad days but nothing compared to the coming months and years.

  43. I believe that there will be a round 2 sooner rather than later, this may have been one of the reasons that Alex Salmond stepped down yesterday. He knew he could never go back on his ‘once in a generation opportunity’ mantra and passes the torch on to Nicola Sturgeon who will galvanise the existing support and will appeal more to women and the older generation. Imagine the socialist left of Scotland accepting rule from a Tory/Ukip alliance without a backlash, I can’t and I am optimistic that this is just the start of something much bigger, possibly not just involving the people of Scotland. The seed has been sown and Westminster will not deliver on their promises. People are sick of being lied to and are now very aware of the propaganda machine which exists to divide and distort reality as a means to control the population.
    The grey haired mafia do need a reality check though, I’d only give the free services to those who actually need it, not those with the private golf memberships, then we may see a more balanced voting preference, where they actually vote on policy and escape the selfish, what’s in it for me attitude.

    Don’t lose the faith, keep up the pressure, we will succeed.

    • We will succeed if YES SCotland stand candidates at the election next Year – we start with the SNP MP’s as the first YES Scotland candidates and then add candidates from the Yes camp where appropriate. Please read my comments above on this to explain it better.

      • Are you on twitter Patrick? If no get on and share this plan. Already many tweeting on ‘Anyone but Labour’ in 2015.

      • Sounds like a good plan Patrick. We are all in this together and Independence has to be the priority over everything else. Even two more months of campaigning and I feel we would have won comfortably.

  44. Plain and simple whichever side, it’s a democracy that’s the way we roll, had it been somewhere in the middle east the vote would never have happened and any dissent would have been quashed violently.
    Sure I ain’t happy with .gov, I didnt vote for them, boils my blood when I see what they’re doing with the nhs, education, and the armed forces. But as I said it a democracy – can’t fight it from the outside we are not savages, change is brought about through education, debate and campaigns . If we resort to violence we are just as bad as those who hit the headlines on a daily basis through fear and terrorism to get their own way.

  45. You all don’t get it we did win. The Queen gave permission for Disagreements in rulings regarding the Treaty of Union to be decided on in the EU court.This meant that their campaign claims of No campaign had to go the EU court (remember ‘Clear Legal Basis’ ?) to get a ruling on their claims

    “Scotland cant be in the Euro” : Article 4 (we are already a member of the Euro)
    “Scotland cant keep the pound ” : We have our own mint – unless the Scottish parliament repeals Act 14.
    “Scotland cant have a currency union” : We have a currency union under Article 16.
    “Scotland has a £5bn debt hole ” : In order to ascertain our legal debt as per Article 9
    we obviously need a commissioner to total the Amount of the Equivalents as per article 15 – enter Lord Smith of Kelvin.

    But then you cant tell people the result of the ruling until afterwards – but now the deal has been done.
    Or the inside of the Sun on voting morning might have been pointing out the above Articles and their meaning.

  46. Like many, I spent yesterday mourning a dream. One, that for most of my adult life, had seemed like a childish whim. Scotland as a proud nation of the world focused on building a future – better than the bleak, grey descent into the managed democracy of finance capitalism and narrow militaritic British nationalism.

    But in the last two years I had rediscovered a belief, a belief that in a people that could rise above the fear, the indifference, the apathy and build a better future. What surprised me this morning was how stubbornly that new found belief refuses to die, a butterfly of hope in a storm of fear and burning saltires.

    Thank you to everyone who worked on this campaign, stayed positive and showed us all that while the future may be hard to build the effort is not in vain – you have inspired at least one your fellow Scots. Now is not the time to give up – dreams are hard to make real, those of us who grew up here know the story of the spider, new arrivals make it part of who you are.

    An army of Spiders and Butterflies waiting another chance to take the citadel.

    Don’t think they have won the war- they spent everything to win this battle. Labour sided with UKIP and big business, on a path to becoming the Tories of the Nineties; the BBC had to choose between its role as a state broadcaster and impartial journalism and must live with the consequences; it’s hard to see how the establishment press in Scotland can last a decade (the irony of the Scotsman); the old dinosaurs are tied to a generation that is not being renewed; the alliances they built will cost them dear, the promises they break will tear them apart.

    Above all they tried to extinguish a dream once and for all and instead built a movement that hopes for a better future without them, not just in Scotland, but Scotland is where it WILL begin. We know now what we need to do to win, where the lines are drawn, who we need to take with us next time.

    On Monday I’ll put on my suit and go to work, just another forty year old business man on his way to work. But, thanks to you, underneath it I will now, and ALWAYS, be one of the 45.

  47. If any of you think that the Scottish government can protect you ,sorry but it wont,because soon the teeth will be pulled,the no vote has left us as a toothless dog begging for scraps off of our own table,we wont get a penny of our natural resources and because of fools that believe the Labour party (dirty traitors to my mind) we shall soon see our water sold off to some nice Tories from the London city.They will get it for a pound and they will milk everyone of us thanks no voters you have finished off the work of Wade.

  48. Reblogged this on charlesobrien08 and commented:
    If any of you think that the Scottish government can protect you ,sorry but it wont,because soon the teeth will be pulled,the no vote has left us as a toothless dog begging for scraps off of our own table,we wont get a penny of our natural resources and because of fools that believe the Labour party (dirty traitors to my mind) we shall soon see our water sold off to some nice Tories from the London city.They will get it for a pound and they will milk everyone of us thanks no voters you have finished off the work of Wade.

  49. I am one of those considerably over 65s, I call myself a Borderer – neither Scots or English but of the ancient Celtic stock which occupied this land long before any arbitrary borders existed. I live in Northumberland just a few miles the wrong side of the modern border which meant I could not vote. However I was rooting for the Yes campaign with all my heart. I hope I will see an independent Scotland before I die.
    Can anyone tell me the source of the age related voting data?

  50. George Square should be renamed….something to do with freedom comes to mind.

  51. Thanks for this, the more I read, the more better than total ziltch I feel. I know I’ve been conned and lied to. I know there have been illegalities in the voting process. I saw the head of the Electoral Commission enjoy a victory smile when announcing the national result. What will be done about about ever more rampant tribalism where intimidation becomes the norm and the police are caught in the middle. What will happen to those politicians who stirred-up that monster and will now sit back and watch the out-letting of bigotry?

    I feel hamstrung. I need to ask, do I have a country any more or do I live in a region?

    What will happen to the hugely ingenious plans that were put on the table to use our natural resources, and the imaginative projects eagerly presented that would be winners given the financial backing independence would have supported.

    Will we have to see our talented young Scots continue to flow away to other countries instead of working and prospering here? Can we personally afford to see them realise their potential when education charges are re-instated, or will we slump to the lowest common denominator and the wasted circle of failed fulfilment.

    What a mess the 55% have given to Scotland’s future and our youngest! Selfish, stupid bastards all!

    Sad, sad times indeed.

    • That 55% contained many young Scots, especially in Edinburgh and Aberdeen, who voted No.

      • Yes, you’re right about that, if 71% of young voters were YES that means 29% voted NO – and just what does that tell you? Does it mean if they get to university – they’ll be quite happy to pay up to £9k – or even more, sky’s the limit, God only knows?

        But, if they have no worries on that score, they’re either comfortably backed up by mum and dad’s bank or they just don’t give a toss about anybody, themselves included. So looks like the same mum and dad’s done a really good upbringing job there, eh?

        Education should be free to all, but not a chance of that now, thanks to those of the 55 brigade.

        Really well done and vewwy, vewwy pwoud of you all – I don’t think – and NO Thanks for trying to send Scotland backwards.

      • There is no such thing as a free education, or a free anything, Barontorc. Everything is paid for out of taxation. The more you want, the more you are taxed. With such a small population, the GDP of Scotland would not be able to finance all the freebies that the Scots seem to think they are entitled to. Nicola Spurgeon may be a competent lawyer, but she is not a miracle worker, as you will soon discover.

  52. You all don’t get it – We YES won.

    Why didn’t the sun choose sides ?
    And Why did no one talk about the money ?
    Why was Swinney not challenging the figures on this and revenue and blah blah blah.

    Because it was a waste of time. Without the legal right to challenge numbers by inspecting the Books there would be no point.Also the other main arguments of Westminster likewise need a legal basis and that legal basis is the Treaty of Union.

    Do you realise how Yes played such a positive campaign and stuck to the rules that when No broke them there were consequences?

    The truth is that the No campaign and their claims meant we had to go the EU court (remember ‘Clear Legal Basis’ ?)
    to get a ruling on-
    “Scotland cant be in the Euro” : Article 4 (we are already a member of the Euro)
    “Scotland cant keep the pound ” : We have our own mint – unless the Scottish parliament repeals Act 14.
    “Scotland cant have a currency union” : We have a currency union under Article 16.
    “Scotland has a £5bn debt hole ” : In order to ascertain our legal debt as per Article 9
    we obviously need a commissioner to total the Amount of the Equivalents as per article 15 – enter Lord Smith of Kelvin.

    The Edinburgh agreement was legally binding so breaches have consequences one of which is article 15 which basically says we can send in the auditors to check its fair. As article 258 of the EU treaty says we can (and we are bound by article 3 & 4) to abide by European Law

    But then you cant tell people the result of the ruling until afterwards – but now the deal has been done.
    Or the inside of the Sun on voting morning might have been pointing out the above Articles and their meaning.
    What was needed was a way to legally and officially sort out what was due according to the Treaty of Union.

    That meant we got to check the books – And what do we find?

  53. I’m 58 and voted YES because I hate the filthy tory scum and wanted a better future for the poor and young.

    • You have a short memory, Mr Barbour. It was the filthy Labour scum of Blair and Brown who gave us such a miserable present-day existence. 13 years of Labour rule produced the Iraq war and the recession, thanks to our two Scottish premiers.

  54. I was angry and disappointed with the over 65’s for a while. But they are not to blame, and are perfectly entitled to vote in their own (perceived) self interest. The blame lies squarely with those who played a dastardly trick on our most vulnerable citizens and frightened them into trying to hold onto something that was already perfectly safe and guaranteed.

  55. For all the people who are deeply hurt by what happened I thought I would post to explain why I voted no. I am fully aware that, to put it mildly, some may not want to hear this but I thought it might put things in context. It may also draw some of the abuse I have read in, admittedly a few, posts here and elsewhere.
    I have not really seen anywhere else people sharing their experiences like this.

    I am part of the UK and I am part of Scotland. I don’t feel Scottish any more than I feel British. I have no place for nationalism. I can’t take pride in the fact that my mum and dad happened to have to conceived me in Scotland. I can take pride in things like my fellow men and women, and the political decisions taken in their name.

    I truly cannot understand a continually repeated line that ‘this is not about nationalism’ – it is a movement to leave the UK/ make Scotland independent! It’s like saying ‘I want nationalisation/ wage equality/ gender equality but this is definitely not about socialism’.

    I found the whole ‘Westminster is broken’ line to be overstated – it reminded me of ‘broken Britain’, and the worst excesses of doom-mongering from UKIP, the Daily Mail and the Guardian.

    Yes, there are undeniably horrific things that have happened and are happening in Britain. But a lot of these – privatisation, council house sales without replacement, bedroom tax, poll tax, food banks, Iraq war, etc., – have only happened in the last 30 years or so.

    In the shorter term we have had devolution, the minimum wage and massive investment in public services. I write not as a Labour supporter, but someone who has voted SNP, Labour, green, SSP and the James Connolly society (when younger and dafter). Don’t forget we have already lost one First minister (McLeish) and opposition leader (McLetchie) to financial ‘scandals’. Then there was the parliament building and the trams. Are we broken?

    I couldn’t reconcile the whole ‘Scotland is so rich and clever and prosperous’ line, with a campaign that also told us how ‘Westminster’ had made us all so poor and backwards.

    The point is that it has taken a short time to get this bad – it can take an equally short time to get it better. But I want it to be better for all of the UK, not just Scotland. I know, I know, ‘this isn’t about the rest of the UK’, ‘they just don’t get it, etc.’ but that’s how I feel. If you feel solely Scottish then I completely understand why you would want independence. But I don’t – I’m not being selfish I am expressing solidarity.

    In short, I want no nuclear weapons in the UK (not just in Scotland); I want no food banks; I want fairer taxation; I want investment in houses; I want greater democracy. I don’t want 3% cuts in corporation tax or a ‘green government’ that wrings every last drop of oil out of the north sea.

    Ah, but that’s not what I would have got, see ‘this was just a conversation and the real change would have followed the first Scottish election’. Really? Would the 4 main parties have transformed so much and, if so, would you have trusted them? And with our funding still being dictated by Barnett for the foreseeable future, how could we possibly have avoided the imminent and already happening cuts without tax rises or huge and unprecedented rises in productivity and innovation?

    I take no real pleasure from the vote and felt immensely sad yesterday and today and for the next while. I want the same as what you want, but I want it throughout the UK. I want a left of centre UK-wide political party.

    I am not scared (I did have concerns, not scaremongering), or selfish or, heaven help me, old.

    • To me that sounds like finding yourself on a sinking ship with only one lifeboat and coming to the conclusion that because everyone can’t fit in the lifeboat that therefore nobody should use it.

      Tell yourself what you want Donnie but you’ve helped condemn a whole load of people to a very bleak future.

      • Depends on how you and others vote in future and on the political choices that parties offer. Much like would have had happened had Scotland been independent! Unless people genuinely believe that, uniquely, Scottish politicians and voters would never make any bad or selfish decisions..

    • You have been fooled into thinking that the UK will provide ANY of the desires you have.

      You will not see trident removed, it will be replaced.

      The only chance there was of that happening was on 18th September.

      So take a step back and watch as havoc is rained down on Scotland, watch as food banks increase, watch as more children are put into poverty, watch as our natural resources will be used to feed the rabid beast that is the city of London, watch as more people commit suicide when ATOS is at their heels, watch and be proud that this was caused by the 55%.

      Spare your faux sadness, it fools no-one.

    • Spare me your faux sorrow.

      WM will deliver none of your desires.

      You threw away the only chance we had of getting rid of trident and for that alone – you should be ashamed.

      Because there was nowhere else in the UK like Coulport the US said they would take them back – so you gave up that possibility as well.

      Watch as one of the 55% as more children are below the poverty line, as mor disabled folk commit suicide with ATOS at their back, with Scotland’s natural resources diverted to feed the rabid beast that is the city of London and take pride in you No vote.

      • You sound like a very disappointed girl, liz! Cheer up, you are still a citizen of the EU, the union that every nation in Europe is clamouring to join. England and Wales are members, and so should Scotland. A vote for independence would have ruined Scotland’s prosperity by forcing the nation to leave not only the UK but also the much larger EU.

      • @geoffreysmith1 – ah girl says he – so I presume you had a hand in the #patronisingBTlady ad.

        Yes I am disappointed but also re-vitalised and we 45% are not going away,

        We will regroup and start again with more knowledge of how the biased media works.

        At the start of this in my naivity, I had assumed that BT would lay out it’s stall as would Yes, we would all have discussions, British fair-play would be there and the BBC would give it’s impartial view on it all.

        We now know, and more importantly the world’s media now know, just how corrupt the UK and it’s institutions are.

        You may have ‘won’ but you did it on a pack of lies with the whole Brit establishment at it’s back.

        So feel free to gloat, and in a years time see the UK leave the EU.

      • So good you posted it twice…loads of children came out of the poverty line under the last labour govt and I am sure they will do so again if Labour or another left govt gets in. I’m entirely sure there would still have been child poverty under a Scottish govt (As there has been since devolution, when for times, we had a great deal of resources at our disposal). I take no ‘pride’ in a vote but I don’t think a slightly hysterical, ‘we’re all doomed approach and it’s all your fault is’ what the brave 45ers should stoop to. Don’t give up so easily.

    • I think these points are perfectly valid, and I respect you very much for saying them. You are British, you feel British, not Scottish, so it is perfectly rational for you to vote for your country, Britain. My country is Scotland, I have never felt British in my life. I hope you can recognise that it is likewise perfectly rational for me to vote for mine. ‘British’ has always felt like wearing a school uniform, formal, and soulless, so that you can’t wait to get home and take the darn thing off, and get back to being yourself, and comfortable in your own skin.

      But Britain does have problems of over-centralisation. The economy needs rebalancing, and there are sound pragmatic and democratic reasons for voting Yes if you have made your home in Scotland and intend to go on living here even if you feel British in identity, and I’m sorry, but you would have to be a Britnat to overlook these things. The thing that has fuelled the drive for Scottish self-determination more than anything else is the issue of who controls the Scottish economy.

      Put simply, 40,000 young people aged 16-24 leave Scotland every single year, most of them never to return. This pattern has been going on for a very long time, and the union has done nothing to halt it. Scotland is wealthy, yet it does not control its wealth; the levers to stimulate the economy by fiscal or policy measures, or by interfacing with the international community, are simply not available under devolution. We are locked into a macro-economic policy framework established by the south of England which may well fit with their economic profile and geopolitical circumstances, but they do not fit ours, nor for that matter, much of the north of England. We are a nation (the north of England is a region) and we want to recover our sovereignty because one size does not fit all. It’s not about identity, though history and identity is the glue that holds the idea of Scotland together as a concept and gives Scottish independence coherence.

      The union worked well when there were few issues on which North and South Britain did not agree, and when the British state was in its infancy, and when a lot of power, economic and social power, rested at local levels. But as Britain has developed into a highly centralised state after the last war, local power has steadily leached away. This presents problems of accountability as well as of economic prosperity.

      In 1707 we had 32% of the landmass of the UK, and one quarter of the population. Today we still have 32% of the landmass but only one twelfth of the population. That’s what 307 years of ‘union’ does for you.

      • Hi

        Thanks for a thoughtful response – as I said in my original post “If you feel solely Scottish then I completely understand why you would want independence”, so yes, I do agree with you.

        I do understand fully – I was a member of the SNP – but I felt very guilty about leaving the rest of the UK behind; it felt like a betrayal and like we were telling them ‘we don’t like you’. I know people say it’s not the English people, it’s just Westminster but WM is elected (in part!) by people after all. I think lots of us would get a small taste of that feeling if Shetland were serious about wanting to leave.

        I take the point about population (although it’s open to interpretation), but you could also provide probably more telling stats about Scotland’s GDP/ economic development, etc, etc, , over the same period that would tell another story.

        We are going through a bad Tory govt but I really don’t believe we would have got anywhere near 45% had this vote been taken when the 1st Blair govt. was very popular (around 2000 or so). Again, it seems to me to be less about constitutional change and more about political change that people really want.

        Anyway I don’t mean to go on as you probably find this very tedious and annoying. I’m just trying to say that accusations of cowardice/ betrayal/ selfishness, etc, are a bit ott, but emotions are raw and understandably so.

      • I get the UK solidarity thing, nice ethics, but it is just not pragmatic if you can do basic maths. We are a minority of 8.3% of the population. However progressive our politics, we cannot be expected to influence or hold a line that 92% including 85% English, have failed to hold. I mean, even punching well above our weight, we cannot overturn or deflect a majority like that. This is the compelling logic of independence that goes far beyond identity politics. It is quite clear that the British Labour Party are far to the right of where most Scottish people are at.

        Besides, in only two elections since 1945 did Scottish votes and Scottish seats ever help to secure a Labour victory, and that was the Wilson government in 1964 and the Callaghan government in 1974. Even then these were minority governments unable to do very much.

        Overwhelmingly the outcome of British elections are decided by the direction England goes in. So they would get on fine without our now reduced 59 seats. Labour might have to work harder to regain marginal seats if we left. But frankly that’s no bad thing.

  56. My sentiments exactly
    It would be only good manners to encourage the English to go for their own independence and social justice then they could get rid of us scrounging scots and we will just have to get by with the little resources we have, it would be tough without them I’m sure but I for one am prepared to make that sacrifice

  57. YES! The Union won! Most Scots do not want to live in an independent Scotland, right? You should heed Mr Salmond’s appeal to all Scots and unite under the banner of the Union Jack. In unity there is strength, and without it Scotland is weak.

  58. I am over 75 far less over 65. I voted yes. Don’t punish the older yes voters for the sins of the older no voters.

  59. Another thing. Can the crowd at rugby matches ever sing Flower of Scotland with a straight face. I imagine most of them were No voters.

  60. Well, for a relieved No voter a wander round some of the Yes boards over the morning has been an interesting exercise.

    The widespread and plainly genuine sense of loss, deflation, bewilderment and so on is very easy to understand. The thankfully more limited search for scapegoats &/or wacky conspiracies is disappointing but hardly unprecedented after hard-fought electoral battles. The pride in a campaign which took a poor hand and forced a large part of the world to sit up and take notice is entirely justified.The determination among many that this is a setback, not the end of a process, is admirable. And so on.

    A few other observations, though:

    Firstly, the idea that Scotland has been humiliated, or shamed, or is a laughing stock, is simply delusional. Turnout, engagement, debate, scrutiny have all been exceptional, and have been noted, very widely. The only people interpreting this outcome as a nation bottling a no-brainer decision out of moral cowardice – aside from a few triumphalist idiots – are those inside the bubble, projecting wildly.

    Secondly, forget the nonsense about avenging angels punishing Scotland with rolled-back devolution or undertakings ignored. The constitutional genie is not trooping meekly back into the bottle, on either side of the border, and will play a large part in the next GE campaign. If the response is simply to take bad faith and/or vengefulness as a given, search for slights to Scotland and ignore the democratic asymmetries and inconsistencies that other UK voters want addressed, it won’t help Scotland one iota.

    Thirdly, it wasn’t a victory for propaganda over fact, however much some may want a convenient target, and however well the UK media may be seen to fit the bill. In reality Salmond and others played a brilliant media game, notwithstanding fact-free or counterfactual policy black holes you could have sailed a Forth- built aircraft carrier through, accompanied by a flotilla of Clyde-based subs. The sooner you recognise that the 55% did not simply comprise the selfish, old and duped, but also a cohort of rational human beings no more or less venal, intelligent or skeptical than you, and in many cases with no fixed position on the desirability in principle of independence, the better.

    Look instead to the qualities of the arguments put forward, the evidence offered, the plans proposed. In the end they, not the people who voted on them or the media who reported and editorialised on them, were wanting.

    • Richard, I respect your perspective as having “no fixed position on the desirability in principle of independence”, but that is where your assumptions let us all down. It might be better to have one, and then know whether there are any conditions up which you might amend your position. For example, many of us on the Yes side would have happily voted No under a certain set of conditions.

      Independence is not a conditional state of being, and it doesn’t rely upon outcomes. To me it seems like a tautological fallacy to suggest that the details of the kinds of systems and mechanisms we desire to see should be worked out BEFORE we agree on the principle.

      The basic right of self determination does not in itself lead to questions about currency or membership of international institutions. The logical fallacy at play might be described as “pre-determination of indeterminate outcome”. In other words, it is impossible to force upon a proposition that has no outcome in and of itself, the requirement of an outcome. This was best seen in the way the Better Together campaign picked apart the SNP proposals without making any of their own, whilst at the same time refusing to accept the idea that what was under discussion was a principle rather than a set of outcomes.

      So, to claim any kind of objectivity or higher ground in the argument based upon having no fixed position is untenable, from my point of view. You must have one before you can begin to discuss whether or not you want to have a vision about a post-independent world.

      So, for the future, when this comes around again, you should confirm your bias (we all have a bias!) based on whether or not you believe self determination should come at the UK or the Scottish level, and whether you believe a kind of federal structure would be better.

      Like many Better Together supporters you have allowed your advocates to put the cart before the horse in order to obviate any examination of the health and fitness of the horse.

      • Hi, you’re obviously correct in stating that for some people the preferred constitutional end-state is the premise from which everything else follows, and/or on which second order considerations are evaluated. You’re wrong in stating as a fact that independence – statehood – is not conditional. It may well not be for you and many others, but plainly for quite a lot of people it was. The empirical evidence is conclusive.

        Your position does also not sit too well with the Yes campaign as it was (officially) conceived and fought. As a proposition, the White Paper and everything that followed from it was densely packed with very specific set outcomes across the full range of policy domains, so it’s hardly surprising that substantial effort went into picking those outcomes apart and pointing out where they were undeliverable, unrealistic, mutually contradictory, etc. Had a different strategy been chosen – perhaps a general statement of the indivisibility of nationhood and statehood, a handful of guiding principles and an acknowledgement that uncertainty of outcome is inherent to radical constitutional change – BT would have had a different and arguably harder job. But what we actually got was lots of detail, designed to reduce or neutralise any perception of uncertainty. Which, in the end, it failed to do.

        To me, the approach taken very clearly signals the belief of the SNP/Yes leadership that there are simply not enough Scottish voters willing to support independence unconditionally. It may be that they were wrong, or that in time this will change, but personally I wouldn’t bet the farm on either.

        Re. your specific questions, FWIW I obviously disagree that self-determination is as straightforwardly binary as you suggest – sovereignty is increasingly plastic and contingent at the levels of region, state, supra-national body, etc. – and I think that UK-wide devolution of some kind is inevitable.

        Doubtless I have my share and more of biases, though I’m not sure how or how much they colour the above observation. I’ve chosen to spend most of my adult decades here, but am Welsh by blood and mostly English in upbringing, so perhaps a preference for the union is subconsciously hardwired.

      • Look Richard, be fair, we’re damned if we do, and we’re damned if we don’t. A White Paper is simply a statement of a government’s main policy intentions. But what actually gets delivered is subject to the kind of in-depth scrutiny as to deliverability that you say that BT poured upon the Scottish Government, critiques which are of course hugely helpful if the White Paper ever gets a chance to become law, but which would be then subject to further counter-critiques by a government in power which had a wider range of levers of power that would be delivered by independence. A huge amount therefore depended in what we could have pulled out of the negotiations, but Cameron, quite rightly refused any pre-negotiations because he’s not a Tudor monarch and it is simply not in his power.

        Now you are suggesting that rather than submit a White Paper which attempted to be as specific and detailed as possible, we should have put forward something a bit looser with fewer details, which outlined principles, but was not back up by details and economic ‘facts’? That would have exposed us to the ridicule that there was insufficient detail on which to base any objective assessment.

      • Reply to MBC, 18.45 20/9 ( the reply buttons ran out…)

        Hi, yes, I agree, a stripped-down prospectus for independence would have been leapt upon for lack of detail. I wasn’t arguing that the wrong strategy was adopted, in fact I think it was the only one that could have produced this close a result, at this time. But it was a pragmatic, instrumental strategy designed to reassure the uncommitted, and ultimately it failed on those terms, because at least some of the weaknesses exposed were fundamental. To take an obvious example, the practical differences between having and not having sovereign control of a central bank and a currency are real, concrete, critical: credit availability and cost, public finances, prices and wages. “Keeping the pound either way” does not adequately resolve this problem, instead it avoids it. To many at the conditionally sympathetic point on the spectrum and beyond, who were not ready for a leap of faith, the required gamble on sketchily addressed issues like this just didn’t add up. IMO. The status quo wasn’t bad enough, and/or the alternative either too unclear or too uncertain.

      • Richard, foolhardiness is not a virtue, but neither is excessive caution. Fortune favours the brave. I hear what you are saying, but cast iron guarantees were not possible because we are not a sovereign power. I think those who quibble about the £ and the Fiscal Commissions advice over currency union would not vote Yes whatever you offered them. They are hard Noes, who made up their minds two years ago. Absolutely nothing would shift them, their position is ideological. They’re British, Britnats. The currency union was a negotiation point; we believed that the other side would accept it whatever they said beforehand because it was overwhelmingly in their own interests to do so. But it would have required political agreement, and had it proved an insurmountable sticking point with MPs and voters, then yes, we would have had to look at sterlingisation and setting up our own central bank. Salmond made that option quite clear in his last debate with Darling. Or did you not hear this? We run a deficit, so does the UK. Our deficit relative to our GDP is actually in better shape than the UK’s. When you spend more money than you collect in revenues you have two clear choices: either raise taxes, or spend less, cut expenditure. The UK applies a third option, it borrows money. Without a central bank we would not have that option, or it would be very difficult. But we could make a number of policy changes that could reduce expenditure or increase revenue meanwhile. By far the largest component of expenditure is in welfare, and a huge amount of that goes to housing benefit. I am not in government, but if I was running Scotland I would act to reduce spending on housing benefit by legislation to reduce rents to affordable levels via fiscal incentives. I.e., private landlords would be taxed heavily if they charged unaffordable rents. If you have sovereign power you have freedom to make policy changes so that your books balance. Eventually we would have our own central bank. Whatever the Scottish Government came up with it would face a barrage of criticism. The question is more fundamental, and clearly 750,000 pensioners aged 65+ won’t budge. Having canvassed extensively my impression these were hard core Labour voters who had very closed minds and voted simply because the SNP were the enemy. Hell mend them.

  61. We need to hold them to account
    https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/real-recall#petition

    Give us the power to recall MPs

  62. As a 76 year old I voted ” YES ” and proud of it !

  63. Ironic. The baby boomers will forever be known as the generation that gave our future for their today.

  64. Utter tripe. It was a secret ballot so you do not know the age distribution statistics. You might try to correlate using geographical distributions of voting and age groups, but since when did correlation = proof? Older people have children and grandchildren too and spend their lives doing the best for them on the whole. Do you not think they would not consider the future of Scotland for their families as well as themselves. The Scottish people portray themselves as wanting a fairer and more caring society, yet you publish an article like this that, without foundation, encourages one part of your society to take a stance against another. A section of society that because of its advancing years is less able to defend itself. A section that brought you up, cared for you, nurtured you, fed you, worked to pay taxes to support your society. Congratulations on being negative and divisive.

  65. i’m 74 years old, born in England, living in Scotland and voted YES because i want this wonderful country to be a better place for all of us to live…young and old …it saddens me to read all these comments seeking to scapegoat and victimise any particular sections of this country of ours …i loved the positiveness encapsulated in the CommonWeal slogan – All of US First – that for me meant all of us old and young …nothing happens as you get older to make you any less of a valuable and worthwhile citizen…i belong here and intend to stay to continue the fight for a fairer society for All of US

  66. I’m 66 – I voted YES. My wife is 70 – she voted YES. So drop the baby boomer blame game! Some of us have wanted and worked for Scottish independence before some of the eejit ageist commenters on here were born. At the end of the day, a majority of people resident in Scotland said “No”. Personally, I can’t understand why, but it’s possibly because the “average” citizen is a moron. I now won’t see Scottish independence in my lifetime and that’s enough of a heartbreak without reading asinine comments from numpties who try to blame pensioners (or any other demographic group) for our loss. Welcome to “Scotland the Feart”!

  67. I stood at a polling station in the posh west end of Greenock all day. I saw the angry silent majority coming out to vote NO. THEY DONT CARE IF WE GET ANY POWERS. They are politically ignorant and don’t wan’t to hear the other side’s argument’s. Ugly miserable people.

  68. My wife was told she didn’t look poor enough to vote YES!

  69. Get real, when the cuts come, the Scottish Government will have to make some hard choices. If it’s a matter of preserving free bus passes or free prescriptions, then the bus passes have to go. If it’s a matter of preserving free personal care or free university education, then the free personal care has to go. If it’s a matter of preserving the Scottish NHS, then everything else has to go.

    That’s just tough for OAPs (and I speak as an OAP myself with a free bus pass) and if they thought that they could drop the rest of us in it and keep all their ‘stuff’ they’ve got another think coming.

  70. The section of the population who voted No by 100% were No voters.

    Any of the other subdivisions folks mention above were mixes of Yes and No and it is utterly stupid and divisive to label all “elderly” or “English” as Noes, then complain at length about their imagined failings.

    Rather than fall out about imaginary divisions we should be holding WM to account over their avowed timetable for new powers for Scotland.

    • The best way to get a real idea of how bad this poll is to look at the full data tables. Within a minute I found one group that only had 4 respondents with one person asserting a certain claim, resulting in a final statistic of 25%. How can you extrapolate that to the nation as a whole? Simple answer is that you can’t. I’m not sure what Lord Ashcroft’s agenda is in producing such poor data, but he’s certainly pulling the wool other somebody’s eyes. I’m surprised that Yes voters are using data provided by a Tory peer.

  71. I am another over 70 “Yes” voter! I was born in England and came up to Scotland 20 years ago and chose to make my home here. I took a degree up here for which I had to pay my own fees – I did not have free tuition fees. I voted “Yes” for the sake of Scotland and so did many of my friends, some of whom are from other parts of Europe. They are now very worried about their futures in Scotland and are already considering moving away from Scotland. They voted “Yes” for Scotland’s future and now their own futures are very unpredictable and uncertain. They are bitterly disappointed.

    We do have to find a way of moving forward together without recriminations. We have to work hard at this – it will be difficult to start with but we must persevere. People in my street of many different ages had “Yes” posters in their windows – none of us are planning to move away from Scotland any time soon! We are here to stay! 🙂

  72. The article is cliche-ridden nonsense. Here is a 60 year-old who voted Yes (as I did in ’79), Take my bus pass off me ? Just try !

  73. Lost a battle but the people of Scotland will win in the end. Independence is coming, of that there can be no doubt. BY the way I thought ‘unionists’ were proud of the last war and the fight against Nazism. Why did I see these louts giving Nazi salutes in Glasgow. Keep on changing Scotland, that’s all I can say, we will have our independence.

    • They were hardly representative of anyone other than a rabble of drunken idiots. They have existed within Scotland for some time and will continue to do so. All societies have dregs like this and to liken them to people who voted no and to stay in the union is a false argument. It would be just as easy to skew that statement and say that half of Scotland’s population are drunken, loutish, Nazi morons, but I’m sure you can see the flaw in that James.

  74. Please dont get caught up in blaming the elderly or indeed the electorate generally. Everyone, especially the elderly and the technically illiterate, were disenfranchised by a one sided media and established party poltics. The real question is how could a massive number of people turn out to vote ‘no’, win the vote, and then celebrate with one of the most miserable weekends partying in Scottish history. Did democracy attempt suicide last week or is there simply a local tendency to mourn victory and celebrate defeat?

    • Democracy won. The people of Scotland were allowed to vote for or against self-determination as a standalone nation outwith the Union. The Scottish people chose not to do that. The only undemocratic part is the refusal of many Yes campaigners to accept the result.

  75. My partner and I are both over 60 and we voted Yes. However, we are members of a large club whose membership is predominantly affluent, educated over-60s, and only about 6 others appear to have voted Yes. The great majority are viscerally opposed to independence, had made up their minds before the campaign started, and would not have been persuadable by anything the Yes campaign could have said. They certainly did not change their minds because Gordon Brown promised more powers – most of them probably don’t even want more powers. I’m fairly sure they will be typical of this demographic throughout Scotland, This is not to denigrate any group in society, it is just a fact of life.

    My only consolation is that two of the Yes voters are English.

  76. Mike, Scotland has always been North Britain to the gullible Unionists. We are the ONLY country on Earth to be offered the opportunity of independence by non-violent means, and reject it. What a legacy !!! People voted NO for SELFISH reasons, sticking two fingers up at the people who have to use food banks. They were taken in with promises of more powers for the Scottish Parliament which don`t even include control of our own vast oil and gas wealth. Breath-taking stuff. I have read rumours on social media about the hand of MI5 being involved in rigging the Referendum on Scottish Independence and skewing the vote to NO. We have reasonable cause and the evidence to believe that this is true. If it is proved to be true then this INVALIDATES THE REFERENDUM RESULT and the Referendum should be re-run and this time the count should be monitored by representatives from United Nations, who have `self determination` as a guiding principle. Where are the ballot papers at this point? The fly may have been tricked into the parlour by the spider but it won`t end up as a meal for the spider. Too many people involved in the count and who filmed the count are coming forward to state that the result was rigged. Why else would the Head of the Count state that there would be “no recount“ and David Cameron stated that there would be “no re-run“ of the Independence Referendum. I`m NOT a conspiracy seeker, and there is evidence to support the claims of a rigged Referendum. The question is – WHAT ARE THE SCOTS GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

  77. Talking of losing prescriptions, bus passes and winter fuel payments is not being bitter. It’s a fact of life. Controlled by Scottish Govt or not the funding form WM will be cut and something will have to go. I’m 55 and thanks to the No voters I believe I will never get to retire. However I don’t understand how anyone can say accurately that this is how the voting went. You can only tell by polling people afterwards and a) you can only poll a sample and b) people lie. Unless of course that there is any truth in the rumour that Labour filled in No votes for all the folk in care homes who couldn’t manage to get to vote themselves, in which case the blame doesn’t lie with the voters.

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  2. Will 2014 be the year of Independence for Scotland? - Page 1078

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